Posts by OrphanCrow

21

Help with article on Watchtower Changes due to Legal Pressure

by jwfacts in

at https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/8j8fj9/what_legal_requirements_have_forced_the/excircuitoverseer started an excellent thread on areas watchtower has changed due to legal pressure.

this has promoted me to gather the information into an article.

there is a number of points that i would like to expand on, and need assistance in finding information.. the article is at https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/changes-due-to-legal-pressure.php.

Disciplined Litigation, Vigilant Litigation, and Deformation: Dramatic Organization Change in Jehovah's Witnesses

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0021-8294.00034

27

who has been out the longest?

by stan livedeath in

who has been out of the cult the longest ?.

i'll start--i resigned in 1971, but attended occasionally as a non-interested husband to keep the wife sweet, untill my last circuit assembly in autumn 1980. no connection with the cult since then.

so--its either 47 or 38 years, depending on how you see it.. which begs the question--why am i on this site now ?.

OrphanCrow

Ha!

I can join the senior club too

I left in 71, never baptized, survived Armageddon in 75, and here I am

I was pretty young when I managed to escape - 13 going on 14

34

What really happened around 1918 when WT leaders were imprisoned?

by dubstepped in

i had never thought about this until just now when i saw that nathan natas posted some early tract from rutherford, and it made me think back to what little i could remember of the history i was taught.

i now know that in most cases the dubs will spin stories in their favor.

so i'm now assuming i was told some fictitious story about what happened when the leaders were thrown in prison and things looked bleak for the cult way back when.

OrphanCrow

It is interesting to note that there were other Bible Students that were arrested and imprisoned during WW1 that we hear nothing or little about.

I found this story about a female Bible Student who was also arrested and imprisoned:

UNITED STATES v. EMMA MARTIN (1917-20) is the first criminal prosecution -- local, state, or federal -- that we have found that resulted in a FEMALE "Jehovah's Witness" spending any significant amount of time in jail or prison.
Emma Martin, of Colton, San Bernardino County, California, became an official "Colporteur" for the WatchTower Society in June 1916. Martin had been a "Bible Student" since 1905. However, when her husband died in 1916, she began supporting herself by selling children's books door-to-door, and thereafter, by selling WatchTower literature door-to-door. Martin claimed that the "commission" from such literature sales was her sole means of support. Martin also was the "pianist" for the local Congregation, which met in rented halls.
Emma Martin was jailed in March 1918 during the nationwide federal sweep of Bible Students whom were selling copies of the seditious THE FINISHED MYSTERY book, as were three others (MALES) of her fellow San Bernardino County Bible Students. As were most arrested Bible Students across the United States, Martin was indicted in April 1918 on two federal charges -- causing insubordination and disloyalty amongst members of the military during a time of war; and obstructing the recruitment and enlistment of members of the military services. Emma Martin's fellow Bible Students blessed and encouraged Martin for her "martyrdom" both in the courtroom and later at the jail. Martin reportedly spent all of her time in jail preaching to the jail "matron" who constantly looked after Martin's welfare. That matron reported that Martin preached to her that "the end of the world" would occur before the start of 1919, and that she (matron) should get right with God.
At Emma Martin's trial in July 1918, a jury found Martin "guilty" only on the first count of the indictment. That federal jury also recommended "leniency" to the sentencing judge -- presumably because Martin was a "female". Emma Martin ultimately was sentenced to three years in federal prison, but was released on $5000.00 bond during her lengthy -- probably intentionally drawn out -- appeals. However, after Martin's conviction was ultimately affirmed by the USCA in early April 1920, Martin was shipped to San Quentin. Only a few weeks later, on June 23, 1920, Emma Martin's sentence was commuted by President Woodrow Wilson, and she was immediately released and returned to San Bernardino. (It is not known how much time that Emma Martine spent in county jails between the time of her arrest and conviction.)
Like all good Jehovah's Witnesses, Emma Martin repeatedly "shaded", "spun", and outright LIED during her trial testimony. For example, Martin could quote and explain from memory many sections throughout THE FINSIHED MYSTERY book, but the parts of the book which were "seditious" -- for which people wanted to buy the book, and for which JWs were being arrested and jailed -- Martin supposedly had never even read those parts.
It is also clear from Martin's testimony that, as it has done for decades, the WatchTower Society published material specifically designed for "public consumption", while it made sure that its members received a verbal, off-the-record interpretation of such. For decades, multiple publications of the WatchTower Society have made much of its LETTER, dated March 7, 1918, in which it ordered its members to remove offending pages 247-253 from their large stockpiles of the FM book prior to selling such. It is clear from Martin's testimony -- to those who exercise "discernment" -- that many Bible Students removed the offending pages from only one copy of FM at a time. Those removed pages were then kept in their pocket; and if/when a sales prospect inquired about such, the pages were then given to the prospect for their perusal. If the prospect wanted to buy that copy of FM, the purchaser naturally asked for, and were given, the removed pages. "Qualified" purchasers were straight out asked if they wanted a copy from which the offending pages had not been cut-out. Despite testimony to the contrary, Martin testified that after receiving the Society's letter, she had not sold a single copy of FM with the offending pages intact.
Notably, Emma Martin and several California "Bible Students" had been arrested "weeks" before "Judge" Rutherford and his WatchTower Directors were arrested. Click here to read the untold "rest of the story" as to what happened when the "really important people" were arrested.
Once again, it is anyone's guess as to why "EMMA MARTIN" is not an honored name within today's WatchTower Cult community. The odds are, as do a significant percentage of "Jehovah's Witnesses", Emma Martin may have "awakened" at some point in her later life -- with the result that Martin's service and exploits were purged from the Cult's history.

http://jwemployees.bravehost.com/NewsReports/2036.html

63

2018 Convention movie: Jonah.... oh my god it's bad......!

by stuckinarut2 in

so, once again the society has produced a cringe-worthy, spew-inducing piece of "cinema".. i don't recognise this religion anymore...... enjoy this review:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0tovqkfem.

OrphanCrow

I had never heard of James Bartley before, Sir82. Thanks for that. It is interesting.

I found this article that states the claim was 15 hours in the stomach of a whale:

Did a 19th-century sailor get swallowed by a sperm whale and survive?

The article concludes with this (full article with original 1891 newspaper clipping at link):

The Great Yarmouth Mercury in the UK started this scoop rolling on 22 August 1891 and the Morning Bulletin in Rockhampton, Queensland, snapped up the bait on 11 September. Dozens more papers ran the story virtually word for sourceless word over two years. It wasn’t until 11 May 1907 that Adelaide’s Evening Journal declared “Champion Fish Story, A Hoax Exposed”.
But the tale refused to die and was rerun in many papers over the next two decades. It appeared again in various publications in 1928, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1938, 1942 (when Melbourne’s The Age gave it a run), 1944, 1947, 1948 and 1953. The yarn continued to be published right up until 1985, when the Sunday Mail even reported how Bartley had settled down as a cobbler in Gloucester, England.
Historians have since concluded that the Star of the East was not a whaler, and there was no James Bartley on its crew manifest, while scientists confirm it is not possible to survive for 15 hours in the stomach of a sperm whale. For nearly 100 years the media largely swallowed this whale of a story without once trying to interview or find a picture of Bartley. It’s a great example of never letting the facts get in the way of a good story.

28

advice please/data protection

by Phoebe in

jw
friends

i have just received an email from an elder's wife regarding the new data protection laws.

between the lines it sounds like she has been asked to contact me.. she says they 'don't want to leave me out' so they want me to fill out the form as 'i'm still part of the congregation'.

also, my blood card needs updating, apparently.. the elder in charge will be in contact.. obviously, i'm not doing either, but what do i do?

OrphanCrow

"...an unauthorized elderette"

Is there any other kind of elderette besides unauthorized ones?

5

Will the Pope apologize? - Truth and Reconciliation Commission Canada

by OrphanCrow in

i am posting this in this section (child abuse) because of the impact the catholic church has on what transpires in the religio-socio-legal realm that the jws are also embroiled in, concerning institutional abuses.. the catholic church is not willing to apologize for their role in the horrific abuses that occurred in canada in the residential school system for the canadian indigenous population.. for anyone who is interested in background on this dark chapter of canadian history, the truth and reconciliation report is available here - it is a hefty volume that is very difficult to read and it is the result of a royal commission on aboriginal peoples.. the pope has refused to offer an apology and it has become a controversial subject in canadian politics:.

'no government tells the pope what to say': priest defends lack of apology for residential schools.

a canadian priest is defending pope francis' decision not to apologize to indigenous people in canada for the role the catholic church played in the residential school system.about 150,000 first nation, inuit and métis children were taken from their parents by law and forced to attend church-run residential schools.

OrphanCrow

Not to make light of a dark subject...well, maybe I am. It is the way I sometimes deal with horrific things/stuff.

This is a photo that accompanied the Pope stories:

I have always thought that the Catholic Guardian of Doctrine resembles another Guardian of Doctrine:

Note that each of those G.O.Ds have their hands on their heads - the pope has his hand touched to his forehead and the G-B has his hand all the way on top of his head.

There is a branch of "science" that studies body behavior in order to detect if someone is lying. From what I can remember, one of the indications that a person is being deceptive is that they will touch their face with their hand somehow - with their finger to their lip or cheek or something like that.

Looking at those two photos, I would say that those G.O.Ds must have a lot they are covering up.

5

Will the Pope apologize? - Truth and Reconciliation Commission Canada

by OrphanCrow in

i am posting this in this section (child abuse) because of the impact the catholic church has on what transpires in the religio-socio-legal realm that the jws are also embroiled in, concerning institutional abuses.. the catholic church is not willing to apologize for their role in the horrific abuses that occurred in canada in the residential school system for the canadian indigenous population.. for anyone who is interested in background on this dark chapter of canadian history, the truth and reconciliation report is available here - it is a hefty volume that is very difficult to read and it is the result of a royal commission on aboriginal peoples.. the pope has refused to offer an apology and it has become a controversial subject in canadian politics:.

'no government tells the pope what to say': priest defends lack of apology for residential schools.

a canadian priest is defending pope francis' decision not to apologize to indigenous people in canada for the role the catholic church played in the residential school system.about 150,000 first nation, inuit and métis children were taken from their parents by law and forced to attend church-run residential schools.

OrphanCrow

I am posting this in this section (Child Abuse) because of the impact the Catholic Church has on what transpires in the religio-socio-legal realm that the JWs are also embroiled in, concerning institutional abuses.

The Catholic Church is not willing to apologize for their role in the horrific abuses that occurred in Canada in the Residential School system for the Canadian Indigenous population.

For anyone who is interested in background on this dark chapter of Canadian history, the Truth and Reconciliation report is available here - it is a hefty volume that is very difficult to read and it is the result of a Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.

The Pope has refused to offer an apology and it has become a controversial subject in Canadian politics:

'No government tells the Pope what to say': Priest defends lack of apology for residential schools

A Canadian priest is defending Pope Francis' decision not to apologize to Indigenous people in Canada for the role the Catholic Church played in the residential school system.
About 150,000 First Nation, Inuit and Métis children were taken from their parents by law and forced to attend church-run residential schools. At least 6,000 children died at the schools from disease, mishaps and abuse, according to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC).
A papal apology was one of the 94 recommendations made by the TRC. During a visit to the Vatican last year, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau personally asked the Pope to consider such a gesture.
A letter released Tuesday by Lionel Gendron, the president of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, says Pope Francis "felt that he could not personally respond" to the TRC request.

*read rest of article at link

This article quotes Murray Sinclair, the senator who led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission:

Pope's decision to not issue apology 'a slap in the face,' residential school survivor says

Winnipeg Archbishop Richard...Gagnon said the Pope is aware of the TRC and its recommendations, and has expressed sorrow for injustices suffered by Indigenous people around the world. Gagnon also pointed out that Pope Benedict XVI expressed sorrow for the treatment of Canada's Indigenous people in a meeting with former Assembly of First Nations National Chief Phil Fontaine.
Senator Murray Sinclair, who led the TRC, said that expression of sorrow was not enough.
"It's like the driver of a car saying, 'I'm sorry that you got hurt when I ran you down, but I'm not responsible for the fact that the car ran you down," he said.
There is no excuse for not apologizing, Sinclair said, adding he suspects their reluctance to do so might be because of ongoing litigation in Canada and elsewhere.
"Also I believe there is a strong element within the church leadership that residential school survivors are not telling the truth," he said.
Many survivors have said that they need an apology in order to heal, Sinclair said, and refusing to issue one threatens to widen schisms within Indigenous communities between Christian and non-Christian people.
About 72 per cent of residential schools included in the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement were Catholic schools, Sinclair said.
"The Anglican Church has apologized, the United Church has issued an apology, the Presbyterians have issued an apology. But we've heard nothing of that sort from the Catholics," he said.

*full article at link

The Canadian government has responded:

MPs vote overwhelmingly to call on Pope to apologize for church's role in residential schools

By a vote of 269 to 10, MPs backed a motion today to invite Pope Francis to Canada so that he can apologize in person for the Roman Catholic Church's role in the Indian residential school system.
...
The motion, introduced by NDP MP Charlie Angus, also calls on the church to respect its "moral obligations" and the "spirit" of the 2006 Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement, which included a pledge by the church to raise funds for survivors.
The church has never fulfilled its commitment to raise $25 million for residential school survivor healing programs.
The motion also calls on the church to hand over "relevant documents" it may have in its possession that disclose the horrors of the residential school system. Those documents could be made available upon request to survivors of the schools, their families or scholars.

I have a couple photos and some more comments that I will post next...

226

Wealth, Poverty, and Morality

by SecondRateMind in

jw
friends

i am interested in the approach this forum takes to money.

apart from sex, (which i am quite relaxed about) it seems to me that wealth is the surest divider between those who are moral, and those who are not.. it seems jesus thought so, also.

luke 16:19-31 kjv describes well enough his dusty attitude to the rich who do not succour the poor.. and this world has many poor: so many, it might seem that we can do nothing about it, and twist his words; 'the poor ye shall have always with you, but me, ye shall not have always.

OrphanCrow

SRM: Just a voluntary, charitable, redistribution of the world's wealth.

That state of mind is irrational.

And, rather ridiculous.

Lol! We will let you be the one to tell all the crime bosses your new plan.

17

JW stance on blood transfusions for animals?

by phats in

our dog needed some serius surgery recently & my wife (still in) was very concerned that if he needed a blood transfusion she thought this would constitute a misuse of blood.

i was stunned as never heard of this.. is this a thing?

i left 12 years ago & wondered if it's always been or introduced in the years after my leaving.. any info would be great.. phats.

OrphanCrow

neatdog: It's ironic:
JWs can take something made from cows blood, who have died, and this if anything is closer to a violation of the command to give life back when it is taken by pouring the blood out after killing an animal. However, JWs can't take blood from a human who didn't die to give it.

It is more than ironic.

The org's approval of cow's blood is a clear indication that their blood phobia has nothing at all to do with a biblical position. Nothing at all.

17

JW stance on blood transfusions for animals?

by phats in

our dog needed some serius surgery recently & my wife (still in) was very concerned that if he needed a blood transfusion she thought this would constitute a misuse of blood.

i was stunned as never heard of this.. is this a thing?

i left 12 years ago & wondered if it's always been or introduced in the years after my leaving.. any info would be great.. phats.

OrphanCrow

phats: Our dog needed some serius surgery recently & my wife (still in) was very concerned that if he needed a blood transfusion she thought this would constitute a misuse of blood. I was stunned as never heard of this.

Well, your wife doesn't need to worry if the vet has some Oxyglobin hanging around.

Oxyglobin is an HBOC (hemoglobin based oxygen carrier) derived from cow's blood that is pretty much exactly the same as Hemopure. They are both made by the same company.

The difference between the two products is that Oxyglobin has been approved by the FDA for use in animals but Hemopure does not have approval for use in humans (unless you are a JW...then you can get the same blood product that is used for dogs).

JWs (and their dogs) can use cow's blood. And, the dog's blood product has been approved by the FDA.