Posts by OrphanCrow

8

Biased report of JW trial in Russia

by Citizenfour in

i'm pretty sure most of us are keenly following the trial in russia via twitter or perhaps some other means, and are awaiting the results of the trial.

after the weekend, and what i presume to be a memorial break, the hearings resumed today.

i noticed however that unlike previous days, when it finally got to the prosecutor's moment to examine 4 ex-witnesses testimony on extremist behavior, the twitter feed relaying the trial information "suddenly" lost contact.

OrphanCrow

steve: My response: Russia JW defense team allege - shock, horror - that the ex-JWs who provided testimony against the organization were "prepared witnesses". And that these ex-JWs were "repeating arguments of the so-called sectological literature."
Huh?! That's the JW defense team's response? I would have thought that, since this is before one of the highest Courts in Russia, the JW defense team would actually address the ex-JWs' testimony rather than state the obvious. How does being "prepared" to provide testimony against JW organization and "repeating arguments aired elsewhere" negate or call into question that testimony? It doesn't . This is the kind of predictable counterarguments advanced by JW apologists: Don't address the testimony - just cast those providing testimony in the most negative light short of slander.

"repeating arguments aired elsewhere"

I am so glad they brought that up. Doesn't that allow every "apostate" and exJW story, of those who have been harmed, to be entered into evidence?

I would say that adds weight to the Ministry of Justice's case. I have a feeling that the JWs are going to be facing the same fate as Scientology did. They will be declared a cult that harms people. A harmful organization.

The report from the Moscow news agency fills in the gaps that the JW report left out. The reporting coming from that source has painted the Russian judiciary system as being ill-prepared. I think they are just getting started.

One thing is for certain. The Russians have have satisfied the two witness rule.

I wonder what the Russian courts would think if they knew that the night before, the JWs had all met and only special ones had been allowed to partake of the blood of Christ?

The viewpoint/argument has been made that the Russian Orthodox Church is the biggest influence on these proceedings. If that is indeed, the case, refusing the blood of Christ would be a difficult doctrine for those of the Orthodox faith to understand. Jus' sayin'

51

RUSSIA: (7 April 2017) Day 3 - Jehovah's Witnesses hearing under way

by Drearyweather in

jw
friends

in moscow, a soft rain drizzles.

along the facade of the supreme court stretched a large queue of those who came to the process as listeners.

a large bus is parked at the courthouse on povarskaya street, full of obviously bored police officers.

OrphanCrow

This report from Moscow news agency:

http://tass.com/world/941007

8

Biased report of JW trial in Russia

by Citizenfour in

i'm pretty sure most of us are keenly following the trial in russia via twitter or perhaps some other means, and are awaiting the results of the trial.

after the weekend, and what i presume to be a memorial break, the hearings resumed today.

i noticed however that unlike previous days, when it finally got to the prosecutor's moment to examine 4 ex-witnesses testimony on extremist behavior, the twitter feed relaying the trial information "suddenly" lost contact.

OrphanCrow

Damascus, thanks for those links to Tass site.

Today's testimony from the exJWs appears to have put shunning directly on the table.

Other issues too.

And I like the photo at the end of the article

It looks like a crow was checking in on things over there...

51

To those taking a stand and not attending the Memorial tonight

by doubtfull1799 in

i salute you.

many of you, like me, are probably under enormous emotional pressure, whether from a lingering false sense of guilt from your indoctrination, whether from "invitations," and assumptions that you'll naturally be coming, or whether from outright emotional blackmail, even begging and pleading.

i am thinking of you whoever you are, all of you, even though i don't know you in person.

OrphanCrow

Nathan: I do not agree with the claim that "the rejection of blood transfusions is consistent with the rejection of the blood of Christ." Convince me.

Nathan, I have found someone who has written a bit about how the JWs view of Christ's blood is linked to their refusal of blood transfusions. The author touches somewhat on what I was trying to convey. Sort of...anyways.

(I just ignore details like getting the version of Bible wrong and things like that - I don't expect an 'outsider' writing about the WT to keep up with all its twists and turns and such - mistakes about details that don't effect the thrust of what is being said don't really count)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934228/

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a group of non-conventional millenarist and fundamentalist Christians who believe literally the “Word of the Lord” reported in the Gideon Bible, which is a part of the actual Catholic and Reformed Protestant Bibles. They pay great attention to the last Book, called “Revelation”, and otherwise known as the “Apocalypse”. In the main body of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are words against the absorption of, or contact with blood, a widespread cultural thought among the Hebraic and ancient Judaic populations. This is in sharp contrast to the credence of conventional Christians, who value the salvaging power of the Holy Blood (of Jesus Christ) differently. All blood apart from Christ’s blood is considered by Jehovah’s Witnesses to be a vector of sin. In contrast to conventional Christians, they do not believe in the forgiveness of sins by confession or self-conscience examination. Sinning thus irremediably compromises the eternal life (of the soul). Jehovah’s Witnesses think that a very limited number (144,000) of believers will be saved, which is an infinitesimal proportion if one considers the number of human beings having ever existed on earth. Any compromise regarding sinning abolishes the rare chance of being saved: “What means 80 years of life on earth, i.e., in this valley of tears, compared to an eternity in paradise (as opposed to hell)?” One has to understand that this view is deeply entrenched among Jehovah’s Witnesses and they sincerely believe there is no matter of debate or compromise or otherwise there would be absolutely no chance for redemption.

51

To those taking a stand and not attending the Memorial tonight

by doubtfull1799 in

i salute you.

many of you, like me, are probably under enormous emotional pressure, whether from a lingering false sense of guilt from your indoctrination, whether from "invitations," and assumptions that you'll naturally be coming, or whether from outright emotional blackmail, even begging and pleading.

i am thinking of you whoever you are, all of you, even though i don't know you in person.

OrphanCrow

Nathan: I do not agree with the claim that "the rejection of blood transfusions is consistent with the rejection of the blood of Christ." Convince me.

Lol! Let me work on that one. It is an abstract concept.

I did, though, discover when it was that the WT changed the emblem partaking to only apply to the anointed class. It was in 1938.

The March 1938 Watchtower introduced the doctrine. By examining the yearbooks for the years before and that year, it is apparent that it was at the 1938 Memorial that the emblems became restricted to only those with heavenly hope.

51

To those taking a stand and not attending the Memorial tonight

by doubtfull1799 in

i salute you.

many of you, like me, are probably under enormous emotional pressure, whether from a lingering false sense of guilt from your indoctrination, whether from "invitations," and assumptions that you'll naturally be coming, or whether from outright emotional blackmail, even begging and pleading.

i am thinking of you whoever you are, all of you, even though i don't know you in person.

OrphanCrow

FadetoBlack: As an aside: does anyone know if the jw's have always celebrated a memorial? Was it started in this form back in Russel's day?

Yes, Russell and the Bible Students have always celebrated Christ's supper. However, back in Russell's day, they all partook of the emblems.

http://www.mostholyfaith.com/Beta/bible/topics/Memorial_Meditations.asp

It was later, when the JWs split off and re-invented the wheel, that it was decided that only those with "heavenly hope" could partake of Christ's blood and flesh. I believe that happened around 1935. Or, at least, that is when the "other sheep" class was born. The rejection of the emblems likely happened sometime after that.

Coincidentally, 10 years later, the WT decided to not only block the JWs from partaking of the wine (Christ's blood), they also banned the JWs from partaking of the world's blood supply.

The rejection of blood transfusions is consistent with the rejection of the blood of Christ.

16

Russian Ban exposed but not THE ARC...WHY?

by tor1500 in

jw
friends

just your thoughts....i've been all over this site, everyone says, that if jehovah was backing the org.

then why so many things happen in the org.

child abuse, shunning, and so on....but my question or thought is why is the banning of witnesses all over the media, but the arc isn't wasn't picked up in the media, like this (oh little leaks here and there, but nothing major) nothing like the nyt or any major media venue where the friends would see it and couldn't deny it, even if they wanted to....why does the media care more about banning witnesses than child abuse...i know even if the arc was exposed many of the friends would stay, but would be shamed, because they talked about other religions...or maybe jehovah is bringing the org.

OrphanCrow

Anders: Bashing a former enemy (Russia) is always fun! Especially if it means you don't have to look at your own flaws

Exactly.

Which is why some people like to scream fascism! and point fingers at Chechnya (97% Muslim), accusing Russia of being barbaric for allowing gay concentration camps, while at the same time ignoring the gay conversion camps that are run all across America by Christians who claim to be "exercising their freedom of religion". Except, in America, there are far, far more gay camps than in Chechnya. And, in America, minors are the ones who are targeted for mental and physical torture inside those Christian run gay camps. Children are forced to attend those camps, held against their will, and subjected to barbaric physical torture on a regular basis. Right now, as you are reading this, American children are being held against their will inside gay conversion/concentration camps in the States.

Classic timber and splinter.

Politics disguised as "freedom of religion".

16

Russian Ban exposed but not THE ARC...WHY?

by tor1500 in

jw
friends

just your thoughts....i've been all over this site, everyone says, that if jehovah was backing the org.

then why so many things happen in the org.

child abuse, shunning, and so on....but my question or thought is why is the banning of witnesses all over the media, but the arc isn't wasn't picked up in the media, like this (oh little leaks here and there, but nothing major) nothing like the nyt or any major media venue where the friends would see it and couldn't deny it, even if they wanted to....why does the media care more about banning witnesses than child abuse...i know even if the arc was exposed many of the friends would stay, but would be shamed, because they talked about other religions...or maybe jehovah is bringing the org.

OrphanCrow

Outsider: My other theory is that someone at the NY Times is a JW or has JWs in the family.

Yes. I think you have nailed it.

I'm surprised that Kushner's paper, the NY Observer, hasn't run a story on the Russian problem.

4

Man in Sweden accidently receives Putin's mail

by jwleaks in

jw
friends

a resident of a backwater swedish town called trelleborg was shocked to open his mailbox and find a letter addressed to none other than russia’s president, vladimir putin.

the only thing that per's home address has in common with the russian president’s is the number 23, while also noting that the town of trelleborg is roughly 1,532 kilometers (951 miles) from moscow.. .

when asked if he was curious about what's in the letter per replied "yes, of course i am.

OrphanCrow

millie: Probably a letter from a little old JW, faithfully trying out her letter writing the leaders told her to do!
Although it doesnt appear to have enough stamps for that really does it?

And the envelope doesn't have a return address. I doubt that this is a JW letter because we all know that the JWs who wrote letters to Putin would have followed the WTS' directions exactly and the WTS was very specific about all letters requiring a return address.

This must be the letter that jwtalk was buzzing about a while back - they were convinced that it was one of their letters and that some man in Sweden "got a good witness!".

26

Dear supporters of Russia's JW Ban:

by Jehalapeno in

this is the kind of government you are supporting.. over 100 gay men have been sent to concentration camps for homosexuals in chechnya and three people have been killed.. stop supporting fascism.. if you support the russia jw ban, what other thoughts and beliefs are you ok with policing?.

if you support the jw russia ban, have you read george orwell's 1984?

don't you realize you are advocating for literal fascism when you support the banning of a belief system?

OrphanCrow

LoveUni, I have read some of the Russian court transcripts (translated, of course) where the questioning has focused on the shunning doctrine. That is one thing that the Russians just can't wrap their heads around - how a religion can demand that its members sever family ties. Regardless of what others think of Russians, most Russians believe in family first and religion second.

During the 90s, when Russia was struggling to develop socially responsible laws concerning religious belief, they also considered the rights of those who didn't hold religious beliefs. The Russian authorities recognized the right of individuals to be free from coercion on the part of religious believers. That is why the anti-evangelizing laws came into being. Religious people were told to go ahead and hold whatever religious belief they wanted but to refrain from trying to get others to accept those beliefs.

It is a workable system - individuals can believe whatever they want - they can believe in unicorns and magical beans if that is what they choose. But, they are not allowed to strap a unicorn horn on their head and go around poking people with it. And they are not allowed to scatter magical beans around where others will trip on them.

Of course, that creates huge problems for groups like the JWs who seem to have to convince others to adopt their magical, fairy tale world in order to validate themselves. They cannot, and will not, respect the rights of others. So, they are getting spanked and sent to the corner for a time out.