Posts by OrphanCrow

no small part was played by the contributions of well to do Jehovah's Witnesses. One of them alone, Michael Jackson, who came from a family of Witnesses, is said to have donated his Russian brothers and sisters one and a half million dollars.

The property for the Admin Center was purchased in Nov/Oct '96.

Michael Jackson was in Moscow September 1996

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCg2LTz3X_I

"Stranger In Moscow"

I was wandering in the rain
Mask of life, feelin' insane
Swift and sudden fall from grace
Sunny days seem far away
Kremlin's shadow belittlin' me
Stalin's tomb won't let me be
On and on and on it came
Wish the rain would just let me

How does it feel (How does it feel)
How does it feel
How does it feel
When you're alone
And you're cold inside

Here abandoned in my fame
Armageddon of the brain
KGB was doggin' me
Take my name and just let me be
Then a beggar boy called my name
Happy days will drown the pain
On and on and on it came
And again, and again, and again...
Take my name and just let me be

How does it feel (How does it feel)
How does it feel
How does it feel
How does it feel
How does it feel (How does it feel now)
How does it feel
How does it feel
When you're alone
And you're cold inside

How does it feel (How does it feel)
How does it feel
How does it feel
How does it feel
How does it feel (How does it feel now)
How does it feel
How does it feel
When you're alone
And you're cold inside

Like stranger in Moscow
(Lord have mercy)
Like stranger in Moscow
(Lord have mercy)

[2x]
We're talkin' danger
We're talkin' danger, baby
Like stranger in Moscow

[2x]
I'm living lonely
I'm living lonely, baby
Stranger in Moscow

[KGB interrogator (Russian to English translation):]
"Why have you come from the West?
Confess! To steal the great achievements of the people, the accomplishments of the workers..."

39

Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

by pale.emperor in

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/07/court_nixes_lawsuit_by_family.html.

the family of a jehovah's witness who died after repeatedly refusing blood transfusions can't sue the hospital where doctors begged for a chance to save her life, a state appeals court ruled.. the case, outlined in an opinion by superior court judge jacqueline o. shogan, involves a convergence of religion, medicine and the law.. its focus is on what happened before terri seels-davila, a jehovah's witness missionary, died after giving birth at hahnemann university hospital in philadelphia in november 2010.. seels-davila, who had been serving on mission with her husband in nicaragua, chose hahnemann because of its "bloodless medicine" program for patients who won't agree to having blood transfusions, including jehovah's witnesses, shogan noted.

the treatment plan for seels-davila called for recycling her own blood back into her system.. yet that proved to be inadequate when complications of her delivery required seels-davila to deliver by cesarean section.

OrphanCrow

vidiot: Jeezus.
There's regular, garden-variety stupid...
...and then there's epic, fatal facepalming, Here-Comes-Honey-Boo-Boo-roadkill-eating stupid.

Well, the kind of stupid that is being put on display in this court case is simply Watchtower stupidity. The poor man who lost his daughter simply believed all the crap that he has been told by the WT and their associates. That is all that happened. He believed the WT propaganda. He believed in the 'miracle' of so-called 'bloodless medicine'. He believed that there was some sort of magical team of 'bloodless experts' who would give his daughter all that specialized attention that the noblood people have promised the JWs.

Here is what the JWs are told:

Bloodless surgery has been called the "Gold Standard" because of its known advantages over traditional surgery.

Bloodless surgery techniques involve meticulous study and skill. While a cooperative surgeon, a surgeon who is agreeable to avoid the use of blood products, will practice blood-conserving techniques, that does not mean he/she is qualified to do a bloodless surgery. Even though more than 100,000 surgeons worldwide, including military surgeons, have been trained in this particular area, more bloodless surgery health practitioners are needed to meet the high demand. Training for surgeons, anesthesiologists, perfusionists and nurses are provided by bloodless surgery and medicine centers and some medical device companies.

And this is what the court case revealed:

...Dr. Paynter’s depiction of “bloodless medicine”
grossly mischaracterized the nature of the concept itself, and
would have given the jury a starkly inaccurate understanding of
what it actually entails. As described by Dr. Paynter in his report,
“bloodless medicine” is purportedly a distinct field, for which
medical personnel need to receive specialized training in order to
provide competent, effective care. See Paynter Expert Report at
2-3. In reality, however, “bloodless medicine” requires nothing
of the sort. Rather, as the testimony at trial clearly revealed,
even by [Appellant’s] own expert, all doctors always try to
minimize surgical blood loss and can, and do, capably treat
patients who refuse, for one reason or another, to allow the use
of various blood products during the course of their treatment,
without needing to have some sort of formalized expertise.
There are no specific medical courses or training in “bloodless
medicine” as such knowledge in this area is part and parcel to,
and integrated, into the overall general medical training. See
N.T. 4/21/15 at 66, 94-95 (testimony from Dr. Green);54 N.T.
4/22/15 at 8-9 (testimony from Dr. Daniels);55 Appellant’s
Motion in Limine to Exclude in Part the Appellees’ Expert
Testimony of Arnold W. Cohen, M.D., Ex.Cat 4-6 (“Cohen MIL”)
(Frank expert report). 56 Indeed, even Dr. Prince, Appellant’s
own expert, admitted that not only had he himself never been
specially trained in bloodless medicine, and that such training did
not actually exist. N.T. 4/23/15 at 56-57.

The entity that should be sued in this case is the Watchtower and the bloodless unit itself. They are the ones who misled Mr. Seels into thinking that "bloodless" surgery is superior and that noblood methods are the "golden standard of care".

The responsibility for this medical disaster lies squarely in the WT's corner.

40

Russia - Who Will Get the Property of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

http://www.interessant.ru/politics/komu-dostanietsia-imushchie.

who will get the property of jehovah's witnesses?.

the sect "jehovah's witnesses", recognized as an extremist organization and banned in russia, owned real estate worth 4 billion rubles.

OrphanCrow

A comment from the European exJW forum concerning the article in the OP:

1. The cost of buying the former pioneer camp
was 135,000,000 rubles.
Yes, it was a time when everything was badly depreciated, but even so, the coordinator of the Bethel in Selters, the German Willie Paul, skillfully traded with the seller, with a smile, but bent his line unrealistically
until he achieved his goal .
Yet this amount was not symbolic.

2. In Solnechnyy SI never had a printing house!
Especially, "the biggest in Europe!"
All literature was carried from Germany, something from Finland, and very rarely from Italy.

39

Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

by pale.emperor in

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/07/court_nixes_lawsuit_by_family.html.

the family of a jehovah's witness who died after repeatedly refusing blood transfusions can't sue the hospital where doctors begged for a chance to save her life, a state appeals court ruled.. the case, outlined in an opinion by superior court judge jacqueline o. shogan, involves a convergence of religion, medicine and the law.. its focus is on what happened before terri seels-davila, a jehovah's witness missionary, died after giving birth at hahnemann university hospital in philadelphia in november 2010.. seels-davila, who had been serving on mission with her husband in nicaragua, chose hahnemann because of its "bloodless medicine" program for patients who won't agree to having blood transfusions, including jehovah's witnesses, shogan noted.

the treatment plan for seels-davila called for recycling her own blood back into her system.. yet that proved to be inadequate when complications of her delivery required seels-davila to deliver by cesarean section.

OrphanCrow

On the WayOut: So, they would have otherwise just let the patient die in a regular hospital setting in some horrible way instead of taking the risks of bloodless delivery ....if they better understood the risks that their expert was going to say were withheld from them.

...ummm, I don't think that is what happened. The father of the woman who died was trying to make the claim that the hospital's "bloodless surgery" program was deficient.

Can you explain what you mean by "the risks of 'bloodless delivery'"? What is bloodless delivery?

*edit to add:

from the court document:

“The surgery is performed the

same way. There is no different way to do a Csection

for a bloodless patient, for a Jehovah’s

Witness, than someone that does accept blood. We

have techniques. We are meticulous with every

surgery. There is no different technique because she

is Jehovah’s Witness. There is no special way to do a

C-section on a Jehovah’s Witness.”

40

Russia - Who Will Get the Property of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

http://www.interessant.ru/politics/komu-dostanietsia-imushchie.

who will get the property of jehovah's witnesses?.

the sect "jehovah's witnesses", recognized as an extremist organization and banned in russia, owned real estate worth 4 billion rubles.

OrphanCrow

Listener: Since it was reported that the JWs were given property for a token payment around the years that Jaracz was taking a personal interest in what was going on there and he was secretly planning conventions around this area, I wonder what was really going on.

I think there is a lot of stuff that goes on behind the hallowed doors that very few know about.

I found a couple articles from the 90s concerning the property and the construction/renovation of the abandoned "pioneer camp":

http://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/9612.html#20

Jehovah's Witnesses build center in St. Petersburg
Blagovest (Samara), no. 22, November 1996 (complete text)
Saint Petersburg. With permission of the administration of Saint Petersburg, construction has begun in one of the northern regions of the city on an administrative center of the "Jehovah's Witnesses" of Russia. Approval for construction, which is projected to be completed in 1998, was signed by the former major Anatoly Sobchak in his last days in office.
The decisive argument in favor of construction for the city investment commission was the claim that the administration's department on relations with religious associations does not intend to be an administering agency. At the same time numerous complaints against the Jehovhists from the Committee on the Defense of the Family and Personality were ignored.
The adoption of a favorable decision by the city administration for construction of a "Kingdom Hall" of the Jehovists near the "Akademicheskaia" metro station was successfully prevented by the efforts of relatives of victims of the sect.
As is known, "Jehovah's Witnesses" are a pseudo-Christian sect that is growing extremely vigorously in Russia. Experts on new religious movements note the special danger of the sect for society. One fearsome deception of the Jehovists is the categorical prohibition on blood transfusions. The sectarians believe that "to receive blood into the body either through the mouth or veins is a violation of the law of God." The religious prohibition on the simplest of medical procedure makes "Jehovah's Witnesses" guilty of the death of people, adults, children, and infants, who could have been saved by a blood transfusion.

http://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/9707.html

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES HAVE SETTLED IN THE SUBURBS OF SAINT PETERSBURG
Michael Jackson donated 1.5 million dollars to his Russian brothers and sisters.
by Oleg Silin
Nezavisimaia gazeta, 2 July 1997
In the suburbs of St. Petersburg in Solnechny village Russia's first administrative center of the Christian religious organization "Jehovah's Witnesses" has opened. The vast scope of this action is demonstrated in the fact that more than 2,000 delegates and guests from 44 countries attended this event.
The Jehovah's Witnesses religious association arose in the second half of the nineteenth century in the USA. At present this organization number more than five million adherents. In our country is received official registration in 1991. Before that its activity was banned "because of its antisoviet tendencies." But as the members of the association emphasize, to this day the Jehovah's Witnesses do not know what the government actually accused them of.
Whatever may be the case, the most widely varying rumors circulated, even including the claim that "members of the sect brutally murder their children, sacrificing them, and they even commit suicide themselves." "In fact," the director of the Russian administrative center, Vasily Kalin, declared at a press conference, "Witnesses do not hold radical views and they do not advocate practices that are different from what society recognizes as normal conduct. This is what principally distinguishes us from cults and sects." In his words, the basic goal of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the study of the Bible. They give chief honor to God the Father, whom the Bible calls Jehovah, and they do not believe in the immortality of the soul.
More than 600 volunteers participated in the construction of the center in Solnechny village over the four and a half years it took. More than half of them were Russians and people from the republics of the former USSR. The rest came from Denmark, USA, Switzerland, Chile, Finland, Australia, and elsewhere. They deserve their due: they worked completely without pay and they center was built to European standards. In place of ruins of the remains of a Pioneer summer camp build in the 1960s they erected a four storey building complex equipped with state of the art technology, including a laundry and dry cleaners, a small furniture factory and clinic, cafeteria with its own bakery and kitchen, and seven residential blocks. At present about 300 Jehovah's Witnesses live and work in the administrative center.
As Vasily Kalin emphasizes, because the construction was done by their own efforts, including their own concrete factory, and much of the equipment and plumbing was a gift from the Scandanavian firm the construction cost extremely little.
However, justice requires that we note that evidently no small part was played by the contributions of well to do Jehovah's Witnesses. One of them alone, Michael Jackson, who came from a family of Witnesses, is said to have donated his Russian brothers and sisters one and a half million dollars.

39

Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

by pale.emperor in

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/07/court_nixes_lawsuit_by_family.html.

the family of a jehovah's witness who died after repeatedly refusing blood transfusions can't sue the hospital where doctors begged for a chance to save her life, a state appeals court ruled.. the case, outlined in an opinion by superior court judge jacqueline o. shogan, involves a convergence of religion, medicine and the law.. its focus is on what happened before terri seels-davila, a jehovah's witness missionary, died after giving birth at hahnemann university hospital in philadelphia in november 2010.. seels-davila, who had been serving on mission with her husband in nicaragua, chose hahnemann because of its "bloodless medicine" program for patients who won't agree to having blood transfusions, including jehovah's witnesses, shogan noted.

the treatment plan for seels-davila called for recycling her own blood back into her system.. yet that proved to be inadequate when complications of her delivery required seels-davila to deliver by cesarean section.

OrphanCrow

problemaddict: Orphan Crow,
I appreciate the info. My first child i was a JW, the second I had left. Both were complicated, and blood was almost introduced.
I think the word "mundane" was a poor choice. I suppose I meant "common". Birth is a common procedure. Like do the elders show up for tonsillectomies? There is a larger than normal bleed risk there. I just hadn't really heard of it before, and I was being "groomed" for the HLC at one point in my former life.
Either way, i did not know the risk was that high, and transfusions commonplace. thanks for the details.

Yes, birth is common. Pretty much as common as death is. :)

I don't know if the HLC/elders show up for tonsillectomies. They likely do. The procedure is not as common as childbirth but the risk of bleeding is about the same - 3%.

It is alarming that you were being groomed for the HLC and had never been given the facts about the risks of bleeding for pregnant women. And that is what happens with the WT directed HLC and the "bloodless medicine centers" - they have been trained by the WT and they haven't been given the correct information. The information they are trained with is very, very one-sided and often outdated and inaccurate.

This page debunks a lot of the WT blood information:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Blood_Transfusions:_How_Safe

The risk that takes center stage for the JW patient is the risk that has been given to them by the WTS: they won't get to paradise if they take non-approved blood.

40

Russia - Who Will Get the Property of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

http://www.interessant.ru/politics/komu-dostanietsia-imushchie.

who will get the property of jehovah's witnesses?.

the sect "jehovah's witnesses", recognized as an extremist organization and banned in russia, owned real estate worth 4 billion rubles.

OrphanCrow

Interestingly this house already serves the community, as it appears as "House of culture"!

This is also a "House of Culture" - a photo from the JW Russian collection I linked to in an earlier post:

Дом Культуры

39

Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

by pale.emperor in

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/07/court_nixes_lawsuit_by_family.html.

the family of a jehovah's witness who died after repeatedly refusing blood transfusions can't sue the hospital where doctors begged for a chance to save her life, a state appeals court ruled.. the case, outlined in an opinion by superior court judge jacqueline o. shogan, involves a convergence of religion, medicine and the law.. its focus is on what happened before terri seels-davila, a jehovah's witness missionary, died after giving birth at hahnemann university hospital in philadelphia in november 2010.. seels-davila, who had been serving on mission with her husband in nicaragua, chose hahnemann because of its "bloodless medicine" program for patients who won't agree to having blood transfusions, including jehovah's witnesses, shogan noted.

the treatment plan for seels-davila called for recycling her own blood back into her system.. yet that proved to be inadequate when complications of her delivery required seels-davila to deliver by cesarean section.

OrphanCrow

Wonder: Are JW women aware at all about their high risk? Does anyone ever talk with pregnant?

According to the court document, it was a staff member at the "bloodless center", a JW themselves, who explained the risks. However, it does not say if the patient knew what her risks of hemorrhaging were to begin with.

...Hahnemann had a “Bloodless Medicine Program” with three clerical staff who were Jehovah’s Witnesses. See N.T. 4/23/15 at 154. These clerks were responsible for explaining the risks inherent in not receiving blood transfusions and alternative treatment methods if transfusions are refused, ensuring the bloodless patients’ wishes were memorialized on blood transfusion refusal consent forms, and that this information was transmitted to and prominently displayed on the patient’s medical chart and hospital wristbands upon admission.
On November 19, 2010, Seels-Davila and her father met with Iris Jiminez, one of the clerks at Hahnemann’s Center for Bloodless Medicine.

It appears as though the (paid) JW staff of the bloodless center replace the HLC duties for the hospital. Note that the HLC were never mentioned in the court document.

39

Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

by pale.emperor in

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/07/court_nixes_lawsuit_by_family.html.

the family of a jehovah's witness who died after repeatedly refusing blood transfusions can't sue the hospital where doctors begged for a chance to save her life, a state appeals court ruled.. the case, outlined in an opinion by superior court judge jacqueline o. shogan, involves a convergence of religion, medicine and the law.. its focus is on what happened before terri seels-davila, a jehovah's witness missionary, died after giving birth at hahnemann university hospital in philadelphia in november 2010.. seels-davila, who had been serving on mission with her husband in nicaragua, chose hahnemann because of its "bloodless medicine" program for patients who won't agree to having blood transfusions, including jehovah's witnesses, shogan noted.

the treatment plan for seels-davila called for recycling her own blood back into her system.. yet that proved to be inadequate when complications of her delivery required seels-davila to deliver by cesarean section.

OrphanCrow

Annually. This year. How many will need blood but not get it? How many will die?

Birth rate in US: 2.4 births per 1000 people

JWs in US: 1,200,000 (rounded down)

JW births: 14,880*

Number of JW women in the United States this year alone who, statistically, will bleed too much during childbirth (2.9% of births):

431

Four hundred and thirty one pregnant JW women in the US will hemorrhage this year

*conservative number - the stat of *per 1000 people includes the whole population. The JW population includes those of publisher age and up