Theo,
I couldn't agree you with you more! It is very nice to hear a non-ex-JW say those things for a change.
Posts by AhHah
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23They Came back
by Theophilus inhowdy.
after an unfortunate absence i have returned.
ina previous thread, i shared that i had initially begun my research into jw doctrine and such after being approached (some would say accosted) by a pair of well meaning jw's one saturday morning.
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Who's decision is it to want 'heaven'
by Simon injust a thought.... the 144,000 with the heavenly hope were sealed in 1935 (ok, they don't push the idea openly but it's still the party line).. everyone else has an earthly hope.. just because you have a heavenly hope doesn't mean that you can't 'fall away'.
why, look at that 'no good' ray franz.... so, someone has to take their place.. now, does god make someone want a heavenly hope or does he pick someone who wanted to have a heavenly hope but was going to be disappointed.. who's choice is it...do individuals have free will over what they want.
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AhHah
Simon,
It sounds as if you are asking how the BOrg attempts to reconcile this, right? My understanding of JW doctrine/conjecture on this foolishness is that the individual has no choice in the matter, but that once he/she is called, then their heart is miraculously changed and then he/she wants to go to heaven, even if they didn't want to before!
As I have stated before, however, I don't personally believe that Christ, or any New Testament writers, taught earthly salvation. That does not necessarily mean that there will not be one of course. The irony of it all is that I have no desire to go to heaven when I die. Enlightenment would be nice. If that means that I have to go to "heaven", then so be it.
Maybe we transmigrate to the next planet in the program and are born as a different species! And then we get to visit Earth now and then in spaceships -- but only rural areas!
The way I see it, I have no choice in the matter anyway, so why worry about it? One thing that bothers me about the whole after-life concept is that no one that I know of has ever come back and demonstrated beyond doubt that there is one. Maybe it is just our way of coping with the uncertainty of it all. Maybe we eventually realize that we just didn't have the frame of reference as humans with which to comprehend our next step, and that is why no one bothers to even try to tell us about it. Or maybe, just maybe, this is all there is. Each day of life is a gift as I see it -- so I intend to try to enjoy the blessings that each day offers and not worry about that which I have no control over. Don't worry. Be happy!
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The divinity of Jesus as the Christ
by Theophilus ini have been curious why the jw's and other cults claim that the bible does not support the notion of the christ as divine (god).
can anyone offer an explanation?
my reading of the texts brings me to that conclusion.
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AhHah
Theo,
Please don't misunderstand this question as disrespectful or irreverent, but as I read your post, I was wondering why "proving" the divinity of Christ is perceived by many to be important. I was often questioned about it when preaching the JW doctrines to people. Maybe that was because so few "Christian" religions do not believe in the divinity of Christ or in the Trinity (which are not technically the same) and therefore the curiosity about it.
My point is, how important is it, really? Is it about salvation -- that if one believes that Christ was created by God and not God himself that the individual will not be saved? Does the Bible say that somewhere? Christ is quoted as saying that his followers would worship according to truth (John 4:24?) -- and that God's word is truth (John 17:17?). But what if after genuine effort to understand the Bible, there are still legitimate questions about doctrinal understanding? There are many very convincing Scriptural arguments against the divinity of Christ, depending on one's perspective. Although, everyone I ever read them to was still not convinced that Christ was not God himself -- that there were other (trinitarian) ways to understand those scriptues -- and they may ultimately be right -- Christ might be God -- I cannot "prove" it either way. Does it really matter? If so, then why does not God himself make it obvious to every sincere seeker of truth, especially if God is going to judge people's worship accordingly?
Personally, I have a hard time believing that God will judge us on the basis of doctrine in any religion or lack thereof. I believe that actions (not "works" but, rather, how one lives one's life, what one really stands for) and the heart are what is important. Of course, I can't prove that!
If two Christians have led similar lives of charity and good-will, and one believes in the divinity of Christ and one does not, what will be the difference? If both are saved then why try to "prove" one's point of view?
I am sincerely asking for your comments on this. I respect your Christian attitude and apparently good motives for posting here. I welcome all of your posts and I look forward to your reply.
Edited by - AhHah on 6 November 2000 17:45:18
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23
They Came back
by Theophilus inhowdy.
after an unfortunate absence i have returned.
ina previous thread, i shared that i had initially begun my research into jw doctrine and such after being approached (some would say accosted) by a pair of well meaning jw's one saturday morning.
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AhHah
Excellent comments!
I would add that all Christian doctrines are ultimately interpretations of the Bible and Church tradition, none of which can be proven to be irrefutable truth -- they all require faith in the Bible, the translation used, and a common concept of God (trinity / no trinity, etc.).
So why try to "prove" to a JW that their doctrines are wrong? I believe that some probably are wrong but I cannot "prove" it. I respect their right to believe anything they want to believe.
A more relevant question to me is whether or not the way that the JWs attempt to enforce total compliance with their current, and ever-changing doctrines, practices and policies is consistent with the spirit of the Christianity as described by Christ's own words in the gospel accounts (which are still subject to interpretation and error, but which JWs respect as an authority). And even more important, does their cult-like control truly makes their lives better, or does it demand so much compliance that individuals suffer under it?
The chances of helping an active JW to recognize the effects of a cult are probably very slim, but may eventually help them at some point when they are ready. It is still their choice, unless it is a child.
Edited by - AhHah on 6 November 2000 16:39:28
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
MDS,
It was just a simple question. I didn't say anything about hate.
So, what I got from that lengthy, defensive answer to a simple question was that you fancy yourself a prophet of God, foretold in the Bible, and that you are looking for seekers of "truth" to whom you can preach your message (which seems to be almost entirely based on interpretations of old testament prophets).
Did I get that right?
So, if you get some internet followers here and there are you going to start your own internet religion, perhaps even a little Jonestown somewhere? If so, when do you get around to asking for donations -- or have you already done so?
Do we really sound that stupid to you? By the way, what kind of medications are you on?
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Hey MDS,
If you want me to keep reading your posts, why won't you at least answer the question -- why do you post on this forum? Are you reluctant to say?
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Hey MDS:
Why do you post on this forum?
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
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Edited by - AhHah on 5 November 2000 2:58:49
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Dear NotSure (but I believe you are more sure than you know),
Thank you for that touching post. You have beautifully demonstrated how this forum can be a genuine spiritual outreach and fellowship. I grieve for so many genuine, honest-hearted persons who are taken advantage of and denied happy, fulfilling lives. Hopefully, posts such as yours will encourage and empower some of them.
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Dear Red,
I was emotionally overcome as I read your story. I feel so much empathy for what you have been through. How many years have you been out of the Borg?
I really don't think that most of the world has any idea how much the JW org steals the very lives of their members and then discards them like yesterday's trash if they dare to complain or come to their senses. What a mockery of Christianity and spirituality! They truly are a dysfunctional cult.