Posts by AhHah

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Here are a few links for those who are interested.

I did not read the links, only the summary presented here. I hardly think that enough data has been gathered about the witnesses to make such an assessment. I think that Jerry's bias against the society prevents him from making any impartial assessment. I think the man is guilty (perhaps unkowingly so) of manipulation of limited data and of taking some rather creative liberties with that data.

I don’t have time to read everything.

Wouldn't you agree that it is helpful for thinking persons to have access to a dissenting opinion -- an opinion that one cannot find in the WT publicatons?

Only if that opinion is accurate.

Are his opinions scientific? That is the question that comes up and most posters here seem to feel that the man is not being scientifically objective.

But, as a doctor, he does not have the right to present his personal opinions as if they were somehow scientific. He should clearly differentiate between medical and personal opinions.

I don’t have time to read everything.

I disagree with the WTS on many things. That does not mean that I consider them the devil. There are doctrines and organizational procedures with which I do agree. Some people have a difficult time understanding that it would seem.

I think that Jerry's bias against the society prevents him from making any impartial assessment. I think the man is guilty (perhaps unkowingly so) of manipulation of limited data and of taking some rather creative liberties with that data.

I don’t have time to read everything. "Hey,that's just me. I have no degree!"

Everyone is entitled to dismiss anything they want without ever reading it and to form and express their opinion on that basis. I personally enjoy reading JW relevant research and then drawing my own conclusions.

Lest we forget, and I don't see how we can, given our experiences, the WTS goal is to ensnare people with slick talk and to retrain them to not think objectively or independently. Many xJW's harbor fear of deserting "God's organization" sometimes years after they leave. The WT mind control machine does it's job and leaves it's mark long after one has bailed out.

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 17:58:35

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 18:2:5

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Path,

I appreciate the sentiments of your last post.

However, since I posted this thread, your comments about the articles sending people down the path of hate and being at odds with the reason people post here -- necessarily DOES reflect on me personally. For that reason, I felt compelled to defend my reasons for the post, and my impressions of the articles that I have read, even though I do not enjoy having been put in this position. I hope that I have established some credibility with the readers and the posters on this forum and that my motives are clear to those who have been reading my posts. I would be very disappointed, if by my silence regarding your post, some new reader were to mistakenly conclude that I am hate-motivated. I am glad that wasn't your intention by your post.

Now that this unpleasant, but necessary business is out of the way, I look forward to doing as you suggested -- listening.

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Path,

I can almost understand your reaction if you have only read the conclusions that I pasted (and subsequently removed from my posts for that very reason). However, I still do not see any evidence of hate, but negativity most definitely. Since the reality is that there is much negative about the JW experience, IMO, there is a real need for the negative information to be made available. Even if his bias and negative opinion make his writings interesting only to ex-JWs then I believe they still have value, after having read his articles. Have you actually read any of them?

The fact that his training qualifies him to make educated studies of his own experiences as well as the available empirical data, I believe makes them worth some consideration. Also, I have not seen much of a similar perspective available elsewhere.

Based on your posts I believe that you may be missing the point of his articles and their value. Again, might this be because you haven't read them?

I think its both counter-productive to the "cause" and I think it sends people down the wrong path. The path of hate. And ultimately that is why most who post here are here, because they really want to fight the hate. Hence, the minimal support for your links

I don't understand why you equate negative conclusions with a "path of hate". IMO, his writings do not have the earmarks of hate literature. He suggests nothing that I have read that I would consider hateful or reflective of the small-minded bigotry of typical "hate literature".

If by your quote above, you are suggesting that I personally am advocating hate for the JW org or any of its members, I can assure you that you are mistaken (and I resent the implication). Hate is a very self-destructive and counter-productive emotion. Even justified anger for misrepresentation and injustices endured, should, in my opinion, eventually be replaced by acceptance and one should move on with other positive activities which bring happiness and fulfillment.

His articles may contain insights for some that have endured negative experiences that will allow them to better understand their effects, and hopefully move on with a productive life.

What exactly is the motivation for your posts, especially if you haven't read the articles? Is there some specific quote that you found offensive? It was not my intention to offend anyone by posting his conclusions.

Also, please do not misunderstand my comments on this post to mean that I am necessarily in agreement with all of his conclusions.

I personally enjoy reading JW relevant research and then drawing my own conclusions. Perhaps others may feel the same way. My only concern here is that you or anyone else might mistake any of my personal comments to be hate-motivated. I assure you that they are not.

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Peter,

I don't remember reading any statement of his that indicated that he was trying to write articles that present an objective view of the entire JW organization. He does not seem to be writing for the same purpose as Ray Franz, whose books I admire. I also would first refer someone to Ray Franz's books.

However, for someone seeking the specific perspectives Jerry Bergman writes about, I would not hesitate to offer the articles for consideration. Wouldn't you agree that it is helpful for thinking persons to have access to a dissenting opinion -- an opionion that one cannot find in the WT publicatons?

He forthrightly states his history with the religion which makes his bias very obvious and clear for all to see. Material need not be unbiased to have value. For example, all the posts on this forum are written from the perspective of personal biases. Yet, we all find them valuable enough to keep reading them and posting our own opinions (and biases).

I did not read anything that made me doubt his credibility. Did you? Just because his conclusions are not objective does not necessarily make them invalid (or valid). A person need not agree or accept every word of every article someone writes to find value in reading it, wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, who would ever read or write anything? The reality is that everything written contains biases. It is wise to consider those biases before forming one's own conclusions.

As I stated in a prior post, some may find his articles (not necessarily his conclusions I posted) to be helpful in understanding the effects that can come from participation in the cult called Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not attempting to endorse or verify every word that he has written.

I wonder if the reactions to this thread would have been the same if I had NOT posted a couple of his conclusions (at the end of his articles) and instead let everyone interested enough read through his articles first before reading his conclusions. I did not think that most here would be willing to quickly dismiss his articles (and conclusions) without first reading the supporting arguments for themselves. Since most have not responded to this thread, that may indeed still be the case. Everyone is entitled to dismiss anything they want without ever reading it and to form and express their opinion on that basis. That does not necessarily mean that someone else should do the same.

Edited by - AhHah on 31 October 2000 16:51:2

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Path and Frenchy,

I actually have read many of his articles, not just the couple of summary quotes that I pasted here. I have to disagree with both of you. His arguments and conclusions do not seem to be extreme, inaccurate, or manipulative at all. Any conclusion may of course be somewhat subjective, and his conclusions are certainly influenced by his negative experiences as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am a little surprised by your seeming need to quickly dismiss his arguments, especially if (as in Frenchy's case) you have not actually read the basis for his conclusions. What are your motives for doing so?

His arguments do not imply that everyone who has been a JW is mental. If that were the case then there would be no need for any research, it would be more than obvious. He also allows for the very likely possibility that persons with mental problems are attracted to join the JW org in the first place -- often because of the acceptance that they cannot find elsewhere.

Just for the record, I am not saying that I necessarily believe or accept every word that this man has written. I did find many of his articles informative and insightful, however. They might help some ex-JWs to understand how the religion has affected them. Also, he writes about other subjects, not just mental health.

8

"Clarify me, Claire"

by Pathofthorns in

a great local band.

has a big college crowd following.. .

claire.

AhHah

Path,

Gee, thanks for the clarification??? I'll just go away now.

p.s. On second thought, "scratching my head" was probably a poor choice of words ...

Edited by - AhHah on 31 October 2000 0:9:26

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Waiting,

I hear what you are saying. If I were contemplating joining the JW religion then I would want a more impartial opinion.

However, as an ex-JW, I can verify that many of his statements are accurate. I have not tried to verify his sources for the objective research results he references. I can say that his articles do not seem to indicate angry or malicious motivation. He seems to maintain a professional perspective.

I cannot say that I was surprised by his research in the article about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mental Health. It is a very sad and sobering, but interesting read.

See http://www.premier1.net/~raines/mental.html

Edited by - AhHah on 31 October 2000 17:0:34

8

"Clarify me, Claire"

by Pathofthorns in

a great local band.

has a big college crowd following.. .

claire.

AhHah

If you're reading this, I must say you're interest in the subject is facinating. Your questions and perspective would be most interesting. Why not register and ask them? Just remember, never to use our real names.

Earth to Path,

What was that about? (scratching my head

29

Time Article on Ray Franz - 1985 (scanned)

by waiting in

hey y'all,.

hope this works.

if not, see scanned article under the thread about donating books to the local libraries..

AhHah

Simon,

I'd be curious to hear what hardware and software you are using for the forum, unless that would invite unwanted hacking. Do you manage the network yourself or use a BBS service?

31

Hi, I'm new here also

by notsureofmyself in

jw
friends

when i first checked out this board i also thought it was a board for active witnesses.

the more i read, the more i realized that it was pretty much a x-jw board--more to my liking.

i disassociated myself in december of '98.

AhHah

Welcome Notsure,

I am very afraid of Red. Should I be afraid of you, too?? Please take it easy on us.