Posts by AhHah

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Waiting (and Martini),

Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith,no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. - Martini

Speaking for myself, I disagree. We are what we make of ourselves. If we wish to stay in an illusional world - we will look for a like religious organization. If we yearn for the rules & regulations, we will find an organization which fulfills that need. These are things that an organization can give us. More so than any organization or institution, our base heart, values, personality and time, will determine our depth of bitterness and/or happiness. - Waiting

I agree with Waiting. People everywhere are living proof that we are what we make of ourselves, regardless of any formal religious affiliation. There are many positive persons who are working right now to make their world fulfilling and rewarding -- a better existence now, not later.

I believe that the JW indoctrination tends to skew our perspective. "If you leave us, where will you go? Who else is going to promise you the moon in exchange for your mindless slavery?" It is hard to unlearn the false expectations of someone else solving all of our problems, answering all of our questions, planning our entire life's agenda for the next 1000+ years. (Remember, we weren't going to die. We were going to live right through Armageddon. After burying all of the carcasses of the non-JW people God killed, we were going to -- what else? -- preach for another 1000 years before God does another round of killing of the unfaithful! Kind of sounds like Night of the Living Dead, doesn't it?)

Just like all other persons in human history, we too must face up to life's uncertainties and decide what we will make of our lives, now that we finally have a life. We must finally be responsible for trying to make some sense of this confusing world and finding values that we can live with and live by. Isn't it interesting that most cultures of the world, with all of their different religions, have similar laws and ascribe to very similar ideals of social behavior? I know that there are strange exceptions, but there seem to be more similarities than dissimilarities. Those "unwritten laws inscribed upon our hearts" (regardless of religion)?

We all have problems to face, but have you noticed that all cultures find ways of enjoying what life blesses them with? Most do not retire into a defeated, condemned existence, simply waiting to die.

Just because we do not have all the answers does not mean that we cannot be happy now. Maybe we are actually happier not knowing our destiny.

I am happier in some ways for having left the JW's. I feel that I am finding more balance in my life and beginning to have a sense of self that is not dependent on others. I consider that very positive.

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Frenchy,

I have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and I enjoyed responding to some of them. I appreciate the way you invited open discussion. By playing "devil's advocate", you elicited some very thoughtful and meaningful posts. I hope that you did not mind that I passionately argued my positions.

Foremost in my mind and heart when I post on this topic is the high price that so many have paid with their lives as members of the JW's. I understand how difficult it is to allow oneself to question their authority and reclaim one's life. I try to imagine how I would be affected by what I am reading on this forum if I were still in the process of trying to evaluate membership. That is why I will always argue passionately against any argument that may hold out even the remote possibility that the organization is what it claims to be, a spokesman for God and Christ. Again, this is out of consideration for any who may still be struggling with this and do not want to reject God, but are suffering under the organization. You are also correct when you sense my anger toward the JW org for their deceit.

I enjoyed your last few posts very much. The experience in Jamaica was touching. Although I cannot agree with your explanation of the Bible's complexity, I find it interesting that we have arrived at a similar philosophy for living, even if for different reasons:

I can’t help but think that is the attitude that God is trying/hoping to elicit from us. For us to give him our ‘gourds’ without contract or condition and to tell him, in effect, “I know you will take care of me at the end of the ride.”

Maybe we get a better shot at enlightenment the next time around (if there is one). So each day of life is precious. Make the most of it. Make someone happy. Commit random acts of love and senseless acts of kindness. Prove to God that we are worth caring about.

I am very attracted by those who post regularly on this forum, because they seem to be the kind of people that I would invite into my home and enjoy associating with. As opposed to the stereotype of the "evil apostate" painted by the WT society, those here do not seem to be selfish, arrogant persons, seeking to spiritually shipwreck their brothers. Just the opposite. Even though we differ in our impressions of God and the Bible, there seems to be a genuine desire to help others.

We realize that we do not have the answers, but that we are all still valuable as individuals and we all have positive values to share. Even though we may be initially drawn together by common negative experiences with the JWs, there is also much sharing of life and exploring of different ideas and concepts. We challenge each other as we attempt to sort out the reliability and possible value of interesting research that we come across in our search for answers. We learn from each other. We confront the most controversial issues of human experience together and in the process we shape each other. Yes, we sometimes get angry and sad in the process. But that is good, we need to have a safe place to experience all of these emotions. We also laugh and sometimes we cry. We find comfort in the common human experience. We often rise above our sadness and grief over our past and share genuine happiness with others.

I believe that many of us miss meeting with others regularly for spiritual discussions and just for association. In some ways, this forum is not as satisfying as face-to-face association. But, in some ways, it is better. Would we really all be able to explore such controversial and emotional issues in the same room, week in and week out, without our disagreements becoming personal and uncomfortable? I don't think so. But, just the same, sometimes I really wish that we could meet.

Thank you for kindly indulging my rants and allowing me to purge sometimes. Thank you for keeping me honest. Thank you for challenging me. Thanks for being so willing to share the most vulnerable, personal feelings that we so seldom get to share with others. I love all of you.

Edited by - AhHah on 10 November 2000 13:20:43

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Martini,

I am fairly new here. After 32 baptized years as a JW and having left it for less than two years, I can honestly say that I have no soft spot in my heart for the JW org. I do, however, have a soft spot in my heart for many of the people in it, which includes most of my own family members.

I thought your question was interesting:

If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?

My reaction was the same as Path's. What would be left over? I could only think of the Bible and fellowship. But even the fellowship is perverted by loyalty to the org above all else. So that just leaves the Bible, which is exactly what existed before there was a JW religion. Is that enough to satisfy everyone? Apparently not, or else there would be no religions.

Why is that? Why is the Bible not spiritually satisfying in itself, if it is what it claims to be, the Creator's book to mankind? Is it because much of it is hard to understand? Why is that? Why wouldn't God want it to be easily understood? Wouldn't one make such a book for one's own children easily understood, especially if that was to be the only way one would communicate with one's children? Why doesn't God choose to communicate directly with all of us if we are his children? Would that be too difficult for a Creator? Would it be beneath him?

Is the Bible not satisfying because it paints such a contradictory picture of God himself? A God of love and a God of war? A God who delivers some, and lets others suffer unspeakable acts of injustice without raising a finger to help? That is no more satisfying than the human condition itself.

If the Bible is really God's way of letting us know our purpose and our destiny, then why can no one agree on what the Bible prophecies mean (especially Revelation)? Why doesn't God clearly reveal their meaning if he loves us and wants us to be reassured? If there is a true religion then why does he not reveal it -- to everyone at the same time -- and as often as necessary -- so that there would be no doubt in anyone's mind? Why leave everyone guessing and arguing? Wouldn't most of us do at least that for our own children? Would we enjoy leaving them in doubt for many long years, or all of their lives -- doubting that we even exist let alone care about them?

Perhaps these are some of the reasons that the Bible alone does not spiritually satisfy us. Perhaps these are some of the reasons that many people will surrender so much of their freedom to those who will provide easier answers -- with no more proof than hearing them say that God told me so. Perhaps that is why they are so willing to believe that God speaks to others but not to them personally -- because they so desperately want to believe that God cares about them personally.

I am beginning to believe that any revelations that God has in store for us are not revealed in this life -- at least not entirely. Perhaps we get glimpses here and there, and perhaps the Bible and other holy books contain some of them. But much of the Bible sounds like it comes from men, not a superior Creator.

Or perhaps God started this whole universe as an experiment (maybe one of many experiments) and he is just waiting to see what happens. So, for now, shit happens, deal with it, would seem to be the message.

Maybe we get a better shot at enlightenment the next time around (if there is one). So each day of life is precious. Make the most of it. Make someone happy. Commit random acts of love and senseless acts of kindness. Prove to God that we are worth caring about.
-
p.s. Martini, you might enjoy reading the thread "So, what did u like as a JW?".

Edited by - AhHah on 10 November 2000 4:9:44

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Carmel,

It is obviously not about name calling. It is about an honest warning of the dangers, regardless of what you choose to call it. It is also about assisting those who have been victims to recognize why, and to let go of any guilt for leaving. The guilt is one of the control mechanisms used to keep people from leaving.

Why is that I must actually state the obvious?

Edited by - AhHah on 9 November 2000 17:43:17

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Frenchy,

You stated above:

Dying for one’s beliefs is nothing new. Jesus came upon the scene inside a society and religion that had been in existence for over one and a half millenniums. He came claiming to be the voice of God and His duly appointed representative. He also provided ‘new light’. He challenged the interpretation of the keeping of the Sabbath while he was yet alive and abolished it all together with his death. There may have been some Christians in the first century congregations who had ancestors that died for violating the Sabbath, died by a code of laws that came from God. Now, by God’s authority they were being permitted to do what had once been prohibited to them. Can you imagine the arguments used in this instance? I can.

I am trying to understand why you said the above in response to my statement that JWs have died honoring JW interpretations that were later reversed, but too late to save their lives. I also would be willing to die for my principles, but that is not the point. The point is that a self-appointed human organization (not God, not Christ) demands that its followers be willing to die over their imperfect attempts to interpret scripture. Can you not see the difference? Can you not see the real danger that presents to people when such an imperfect organization claims to speak for God?

As for the shunning…” Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.”—2 John 10,11 NWT What ‘teaching’ was Paul talking about? To what extent was this carried out in the first century. Was it taken literally? Were there ‘committee meetings’? I don’t know. But there are some interesting possibilities here, wouldn’t you say?

Again, when an imperfect human organization demands that its followers submit to their self-appointed authority (not God or Christ's authority) and demands that they shun someone based upon their own closed-door meetings (not open to the congregation) and their own imperfect doctrines and judging of their brothers -- does this conform to the spirit and intent of those scriptures that were directed to individual Christians and not some judicial committee? I hardly think so.

So, if you were attempting to use the Bible to defend the JW position of demanding that its followers die for their imperfect interpretations and honor their imperfect judgments (including for "apostasy") for disfellowshipping, then I must reject your arguments. You still seem to confuse what God rightly demands versus what a human organization may rightly demand. After reading your posts, I can't help but wonder whether or not you have read Ray Franz's books "Crisis of Conscience" and "In Search of Christian Freedom". There are chapters in those books which do an excellent job of analyzing the JW positions on these same subjects. I believe that you would enjoy reading them very much, if you have not already done so.

Edited by - AhHah on 9 November 2000 12:56:29

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Red,

As I read your quote, I was impressed with the similarities of cult characteristics described there with the links that I posted, as well as most information I have ever seen on the subject. Contrary to what Carmel and Frenchy have stated in this thread, there is much consenus among those who study cults on the common characteristics and effects of them. The fact that uninformed persons may misuse the term does not invalidate that. One who has been a member of the JWs cannot help but recognize many (if not most) of the characteristics and effects. Regardless of the term used to describe them, it is significant that society recognizes the potential for dysfunction that membership in such organizations can create. I have observed those dysfunctions first hand all of my life. I have personally had to work very hard to overcome some of them in my own life, and I am still doing so.

So, if anyone tries to tell me that labeling the JWs as a cult is a meaningless exercise in semantics, I know better from my own experience. I also feel an obligation to anyone who may read these posts to speak up on this matter and help them to recognize the dangers of membership in the JW org. I believe that to do anything less would be contrary to the reason that I post on this forum, and would be a potential injustice to those who read these posts. I no longer have any emotional attachment to that organization that prevents me from recognizing the abundant evidence for their cult status.

My sincere hope is that any who may read this thread who are struggling to find the courage and strength to leave the JW org will find some of that strength from these posts. For those that have already left, I hope that these posts and real life experiences will give them the same validation that I have found, and that it will assist them to let go of their guilt. I believe that this is a very necessary part of our "ministering" to such ones and ourselves.

Edited by - AhHah on 9 November 2000 14:29:41

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Frenchy,

Thanks for answering. I was just wondering if you wanted to share your opinions on your own question that you used to open this post. It sounds as though answering your own question was irritating to you.

Many here were very willing to share their opinions as I was. Several, including myself, have already stated their answer (opinion) to your question about whether JWs are a cult. I was genuinely interested in your opinion and if your ambivalence had changed after hearing these experiences (which you said it hasn't). I was not looking for an argument over the definition of the word cult or anything else, for that matter. It was your question, and I was interested in your own answer, which you carefully avoided after quoting so many of our responses. I could not help but wonder why.

Your answer did reveal much about your thinking on the subject. You seem to hold out the possibility that the JW org is indeed what it claims to be. You also state the premise that IF they are what they claim to be, then "would it not be expected to act just like it’s acting"? And, "IF that were the case no dissension could be tolerated." And, "IF it were what it claims to be it would have the authority and responsibility to do just what it’s doing."

Those are indeed the relevant questions. My personal opinion is a resounding and most emphatic "NO" to those questions. I do not find the basis in the example of Christianity that Christ himself demonstrated to believe that any humans would be authorized to act "just like it's (JW org) acting".

JW members have gone to their own deaths honoring interpretations of Scripture that have later been reversed, but too late to save innocent lives. They were willing to die rather than challenge what they were taught to believe was "new light" from God and Christ. Their alternative to dying was to face disciplinary action from "God's channel of spiritual light" and lose all of their hope, as well as the love and respect of their friends and family. I will never believe that Christ intended for those ministering to his loyal followers to treat the flock the way that this organization has done, even if they did have the "truth".

Thanks for sharing your opinions. Please do not take my disagreement with you personally. At one time, I also felt exactly what you have stated here.

16

Voting

by Peter in

jw
friends

i'm voting in a national election for the first time in over 20 years.

it feels good to be part of the process once more.

i'm wondering how the rest of you feel about it.

AhHah

Angharad,

I had no idea! So much for my romantic vision of England! Does Tony Blair realistically have the power to effect needed changes? Does he have the will? What are his political priorities? Who deserves the blame for the conditions? Is it a symptom of overall economic doldrums and lack of revenue? Are the working people truly represented (House of Commons?)? Thanks for all of the insights!

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Carmel,

I have no attachment to the label, only an interest in whether or not the "shoe fits" as Waiting said. If you check out the links that I posted at the beginning of this thread, it should be obvious that there is much consensus on many common elements of organizations that have often been labled as cults, including Jehovah's Witnesses. Would you prefer the term "BOrg"? Just becasue the label has been abused does not excuse the actions of organizations that are guilty of those characteristics, does it? What is your point? Do you believe that the "shoe fits"?

16

Voting

by Peter in

jw
friends

i'm voting in a national election for the first time in over 20 years.

it feels good to be part of the process once more.

i'm wondering how the rest of you feel about it.

AhHah

This Gush/Bore campaign is anything but Boring!

Angharad, what is a "pratt"? What is the dissatisfaction with Tony Blair these days?