BIGTEX: "But that is why 'ethics' and 'lawyer' are so often incompatible. The ease at which they bend conscience to fit interpretation of law, often leave ethics by the wayside. Certainly not for every attorney, but enough that the stereotype of lawyers, unfortunately, fits more often than not."
When referring to ethics as they pertain to lawyers, I mean professional ethics as opposed to personal ones. E.g., a common ethical obligation for a lawyer is loyalty to a client. This obligation may require a lawyer to vigorously represent a fiend, construing laws beyond their intent. This confuses many non-lawyers because they operate on a more personal set of ethics.
BIGTEX: "Your statement, 'Also, the ethical obligations for lawyers require complete honesty,'
belies the reality of most people who come in contact with lawyers of today. In all fairness I work with several who are painfully honest and I would trust beyond all doubt. Of course I there are many more that are the polar opposite. The vast majority I have come across are miserable human beings."
I agree that many people, based on personal experiences, perceive lawyers as liars. I think, though, that this perception (in the U.S. anyway) comes from a misunderstanding of the adversarial legal system in which lawyers litigate. Many non-lawyers I know completely misunderstand how this adversarial system often crucifies the truth for a win.
I too know many miserable lawyers.
BIGTEX: "For myself I only object to the global inference that all lawyers are ethical and honest."
I never made a global inference that all lawyers are ethical and honest. If I gave that impression to anyone, it probably resulted from my objection to the opposite inference given by jeanine.
BIGTEX: "I apologize for hijacking this thread on to such a picayune point. It is probably working around such difficult people as lawyers that got my goat up enough to say what I have."
What does "hijacking this thread" mean?
seesthesky
JoinedPosts by seesthesky
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46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
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46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
HILLARY: "I apologize for calling you stupid. Despite the fact that you do not seem even seem to comprehend your own posts, it was uncalled for. That having been said, I do have to give you this weeks 'Knocked Out Boxer Claims Victory' award."
Lol - nice apology - you rendered it meaningless with another ad hominem attack.
HILLARY: "I am sure that this has something to do with the issue in question. Perhaps you might enlighten us with your own particular brand of logic as to what relevance this has."
I asked whether you were/are a JW elder because it might account for your name calling. I base this hypothesis (not a conclusion mind you)on the following:
JW ELDERS TAKE THE LEAD IN ALL THINGS HANDED DOWN FROM WTBTS
WTBTS OFTEN, IN LITERATURE, ENGAGES IN AD HOMINEM ATTACKS AND, IN FACT, A TENET OF WTBTS DOCTRINE RESTS UPON AD HOMINEM THINKING - E.G., THE "WORLDLY ONES"
YOU ARE ON A EX-JW BOARD ENGAGING IN UNPROVOKED AD HOMINEM ATTACKS - AND IT APPEARS THAT YOU EQUATE SUCH ATTACKS AS A FORM OF "REASONING"
I HAVE GUESSED, THEREFORE, THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE TAKEN THE LEAD OR DO TAKE THE LEAD AS A JW ELDER
AM I RIGHT?
P.S. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH MY KEYBOARD - IT IS STUCK FOR SOME REASON IN ALLCAPS - SHOUTING NOT INTENDED - AGGGGHHHH, I HATE THIS MACHINE -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
Hillary - were/are you a JW Elder?
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46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
BIG TEX:
"My wife has worked for various lawyers for over 30 years. I have worked for them for only 10. Why would lawyers lie in court? Well the ones we've known wouldn't view it as lying. I had an attorney once tell me that all law is grey and depends on interpretation. From that mindset, there is no lying, only interpretation.
"Complete honesty? Well I can tell you some stories about billable hours sometime.
"The lawyers Nina and I have come across (some charging $600 an hour) do not view the law in black and white terms. Everything in the law is grey and any position can be argued. Honesty comes from arguing the case from whatever viewpoint their client wants. (A subtle but important difference.) As long as they stay true to the argument, their conscience is clear."
BT, your words ring true. In court a lawyer can take practically any position as to how the law should apply in a particular case. In those circumstances, a lawyer is merely making interpretive truth claims - none of which can ever constitute an absolute lie or an absolute truth because they all constitute opinions.
Some people confuse that aspect of a lawyer's job with dishonesty. As far as billable hours go, I once helped get a lawyer disciplined for dishonesty in billing. He does not know me personally but I believe he hates me - lol. -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
HILLARY: "You really are rather stupid aren't you!"
Name calling, hmm...
HILLARY: "Can you spot all the instances where you did *not* use the words' most lawyers', but first presented your views as a universal notion. There are *three*, yet you now base your own viewpoint on the one time that you used the word 'most'. Does this invalidate all you said beforehand? I have placed your omissions in paranthesis."
I did not present my views regarding lawyers as a universal notion - look again.
In the first instance, I asked a rhetorical question the (implied) answer to which I predicated on a FACT - not an opinion or "universal notion" - in the subsequent sentence. That fact is that usually (note, I used "usually in the original sentence), a lawyer cannot testify in a case where she is an advocate.
In the second instance, the sentence which you incorrectly construed as a "universal notion," I presented yet another fact: the ethical obligations of lawyers require complete honesty. Some jurisdictions will even go as far to disbar for dishonesty in personal matters if, somehow,the dishonesty in personal matters becomes public knowledge, e.g., via a news report or a divorce proceeding. My statement about ethical obligations thus constitutes not conjecture but fact. [As an aside: a lawyer's ethical obligations constitute laws which affect no one but lawyers.]
Hillary, please read more carefully in the future - at least take more time to opine on another's words before you draw conclusions about them and engage in ad hominem attacks. Indeed, hopefully, on review of my words, you will understand that the only opinion I offered was with regard to the lawyers I know. That understanding might even prompt you to apologize for your name calling. -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
HILLARY STEP WROTE:
"You cannot seem to understand your own posts. Jeannie has made a similarly sweeping statement as yourself but from an opposite vantage and yet you take exception to hers. I am questioning your sweeping statement as you questioned hers.
From the experiences in this thread so far, it would seem that your expressed viewpoint is challenged by the collective experiences of others. I am not going to fall into a game of semantics with you as you know very well what my point is."
Jeannie's statement is indeed sweeping - mine, however, is limited not to "most lawyers" but to "most lawyer's I know." The semantic game which you will avoid is known as logic and, i daresay, truth. Avoid it at your peril. -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
HILLARY: "I have to ask this. If one cannot trust the opinion of Jeannie regarding lawyers because according to you her expereince of dealing with lawyers is very limited, how can we trust your own view. Or is it unlimited?
. . .I have worked around numerous lawyers for more than three decades in all sorts of projects. I have yet to meet one who did not function on a heavy diet of Machiavellian principles. When they were were working for me I was pleased with their 'flexible' ethics, when working against me I was not."
Jeannie based a broad conclusion on a limited sample. For the record, I have not yet committed this error in logic insofar as this post goes. Initially, I used the word "some" in reference to lawyers with questionable honesty.
Thereafter, in writing about the honesty of lawyers, I wrote, "most lawyers I know adhere to the obligation of honesty." Note, I again limited my knowledge to lawyers whom I know personally.
Hillary, it sounds as though you have interacted with unethical lawyers. To offer a thoughtful opinion on this, however, I would need more details, e.g., what constitutes "flexible ethics."
Also, it might help to clarify terms here. For instance, we should distinguish professional ethics from ethics generally and especially from morals. Indeed, professional ethics can often contradict ethical conduct (in the general sense) and morality as well. -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
my last post was for jeanie - not beanie - lol
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46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
Beanie: The U.S. has about 1 million lawyers - you've worked with how many? And, based on your experience you infer a conclusion about most or all of them?
Also, in what capacity have you worked with lawyers? A secretary? A paralegal? A lawyer? If you found them so dishonest, why did you stay in their company? -
46
JW Lawyers getting fed up with cleaning up after the GB?
by ithinkisee ini hope that those that are jw lawyers get tired of the governing body and quit bethel because of the bull shit theyv'e had to clean up after the gb.
it may be happening right now.
think about it the gb have issued the call for more lawyers to the congregations,, perhaps there is some disloyalty growing towards the gb being manifested in the legal department and the gb needs help desparately.
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seesthesky
ALAN F SAID: One would think that any real Christian, who all of these lawyers claim to be, would get tired of having to lie in court and lie to individuals, all at the GB's bidding. It's probably inevitable that sometime, a lawyer or other Bethel heavy will get tired of it, and turn around and expose the Society for what it is.
Why would lawyers lie in court on cases where they represent someone or some entity? Lawyers, usually, would not testify in such circumstances - in fact, that could disqualify a lawyer from a case. Also, the ethical obligations for lawyers require complete honesty. Although some lawyers ignore that obligation, and although the media (hollywood mainly) has often used the stereotype of a lying lawyer ad naseum, most lawyers I know adhere to the obligation of honesty.