Alleymom

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Posts by Alleymom

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  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  Alleymom

  Earnest --

  Welcome back! How was the conference? Are you going to tell us about it? (Or have you already started a thread on it that I have overlooked?)

  Marjorie
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  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  Alleymom

  In reference to the NWT translation of malkut as kingship, I have not meant to imply that this means vassalage even though Jehoiakim was in fact a vassal to Neco and Nebuchadnezzar for much of his reign. The fact that there is a semantic overlap for the two closely related Hebrew terms means that the translater must be caredul in how he renders malkut in both Daniel 1:1 and 2:1. In fact two Jewish commentaries apply the 'third year' to the latter part of Jehoiakim's reign or kingship.

  Scholar --

  But these are commentaries, not lexicons, and this is their interpretation rather than their translation. You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no philological justification whatsoever for your interpretation.

  It is quite true that scholars have explained the apparent chronological inconsistencies and "errors" in the Bible in different ways over the years. But these attempts to harmonize the data are not based on any difference of meaning of "malkuth" in Daniel 1:1 and Daniel 2:1. Moreover, none of these Jewish commentaries, not one, supports your 607 date.

  Does WT literature support you in this, or is it your own idea, as Earnest has supposed?

  Marjorie
• 
  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

  1. 
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  Alleymom

  In reference to the NWT translation of malkut as kingship, I have not meant to imply that this means vassalage even though Jehoiakim was in fact a vassal to Neco and Nebuchadnezzar for much of his reign. The fact that there is a semantic overlap for the two closely related Hebrew terms means that the translater must be caredul in how he renders malkut in both Daniel 1:1 and 2:1.

  What TWO closely related Hebrew terms are you talking about? We have only been discussing ONE Hebrew word, Strong's #4438. There is no "semantic overlap" of "two closely related Hebrew terms". There is only one term.

  The words are exactly the same in Daniel 1:1 and Daniel 2:1.

  (If someone would tell me whether the Hebrew font I use shows up ok in these posts, I will print both verses in Hebrew and highlight the two words so that others can see that the words are exactly the same.)

  Marjorie
• 
  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  Alleymom

  SCHOLAR SAID: In reference to the NWT translation of malkut as kingship, I have not meant to imply that this means vassalage even though Jehoiakim was in fact a vassal to Neco and Nebuchadnezzar for much of his reign. The fact that there is a semantic overlap for the two closely related Hebew terms means that the translater must be caredul in how he renders malkut in both Daniel 1:1 and 2:1.

  Then why, on 23 July, 00:27, did you say:

  "The word kingship suggests vassalage by implication" ?

  Marjorie
• 
  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  Alleymom

  Scholar said: It is true that some lexicons do give a variety of meanings for malkut which includes that of 'reign' but Hebrew Theological Dictionaries give such meanings as 'royal power', dominion, royal dignity, kingdom. One reference work says regarding malkut: "It seems as though a stronger emphasis is put on the activity of ruling in the case of malkut, it therefore also refers to the right or office of ruling as king, royal dignity, and even to the period of reign. NIDOTTE, 1997, Vol.2. p.957.

  Scholar -- Your message to Earnest puzzles me. Your reference to NIDOTTE is made as if you are suddenly providing new information, and as if that information somehow supports what you have been saying. But, in fact, I provided this information twice in earler posts, most recently on p. 8 of this thread in my post of July 23, 1:10 and I asked you a number of questions about it. I hope you are going to find time to answer, as that one did take me awhile. Did you see and read that post, from 1:10?

  On July 23, 1:10, page 8, I posted this:
  I looked at all 91 occurrences of the word "malkuth" = tWkl]m = Strong's #4438, in the NWT. I found that the NWT translators render the Hebrew word in the following ways:
  
  KingshipReignKingdom
  Royal
  Realm
  Royal Realm
  Royal dignity
  Royally
  Becoming King (with a footnote)
  
  Kingship and reign are used interchangeably. 2 Chron. 3:2 -- Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign.2 Chron 15:10 --- So they were collected together at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of A´sa’s reign. (NWT)
  
  2 Chron 15:19 --- As for war, it did not occur down to the thirty-fifth year of A´sa’s reign (NWT)
  
  2 Chron 16:1 -- In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of A´sa, Ba´a·sha the king of Israel came up against Judah and began to build Ra´mah, so as not to allow anyone to go out or come in to A´sa the king of Judah. (NWT)
  
  2 Chron 16:12 -- And A´sa in the thirty-ninth year of his reign developed an ailment in his feet until he was very sick; and even in his sickness he searched not for Jehovah but for the healers (NWT)
  
  2 Chron 29:19 --- And all the utensils that King A´haz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah. (NWT)
  
  2 Chron 35:19 -- In the eighteenth year of Jo·si´ah’s reign this passover was held (NWT)
  
  Ezra 4:5 --- and hiring counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Da·ri´us the king of Persia (NWT)
  
  Ezra 4:6 --- And in the reign of A·has·u·e´rus, at the start of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem
  
  Ezra 7:1 --- And after these things in the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia, Ez´ra the son of Se·rai´ah the son of Az·a·ri´ah the son of Hil·ki´ah (NWT)
  
  Ezra 8:1 --- Now these were the heads of their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king out of Babylon (NWT)
  
  Esther 2:16 --- Then Esther was taken to King A·has·u·e´rus at his royal house in the tenth month, that is, the month Te´beth, in the seventh year of his reign (NWT)

  Please see the post on p. 8 for my questions.

  Thanking you in advance,
  Marjorie
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  26

  Can Josephus be trusted?

  by Pleasuredome in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the works of josephus have been used to back up the gosples, but how can we be sure that those works of josephus wasn't tampered with by the vatican?

  this is something i hadn't looked into before and i found this site which raised a few questions about the josephus texts.. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpaul/chr210mancensoringjosephus.html.

  has anyone done any research on this?

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  Alleymom

  I'd be very cautious of his chronological statememts.
  Josephus couldn't count from 1 to 10 without missing a number.

  No one --
  
  !

  Edwin Thiele has a long chapter on "The Variant Figures of Josephus" in the first edition of "The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings." The chapter was dropped in the later editions, so it's a bit of a forgotten gem. Have you ever read it? In his inimitable meticulous fashion, Thiele spends some two dozen pages dissecting all of J's figures for the divided monarchy, making note of his variations from the Masoretic text and recalculating all of his synchronisms and totals.

  Thiele concludes:

  This completes our study of the variant figures of Josephus. In no case have we found evidence that any of his variants is more reliable than the figures of the Massoretic text. We have had evidence, however, that though his pattern of reigns may be simple, it is not sound. The system followed by Josephus was an artificial system -- the system of a late chronologist rather than that of a contemporary scribe. The one recorded the facts as they took place, the other interpreted the data according to his own deductions. The variations of Josephus clearly reveal the struggles then going on in regard to the chronology of the kings. At that early period the Hebrews themselves had already lost the secrets of their own system of chronological reckoning, and their scholars regarded the figures of the kings as having become corrupt and being in need of correction. Modifications were made with the object of securing more harmonious patterns of reigns than were found in the Hebrew text.

  Marjorie
• 
  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  Alleymom

  	"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that’s all." Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll.

  If "kingship" and "reign" have such different meanings, as Scholar has said, then, to paraphrase Alice's observation, the question is whether you can make the word "malkuth" mean so many different things.

  Marjorie
• 
  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

  1. 
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  Alleymom

  Sim and Plum --

  The thing to focus on is what the Hebrew word means and how it is used in other verses in the Bible.

  Scholar would like to have us focus on alleged differences in meaning of two English words: "kingship" and "reign".

  But what matters is the word malkhuth .

  The NWT translates malkhuth in several different ways. If there is really a difference in "kingship" and "reign" then they should be used to translate two different Hebrew words, instead of the same word, malkhuth.

  And if there is really a difference in the two English words "kingship" and "reign" then why are they used interchangeably in the NWT?

  And if "kingship" implies vassalage then why did the NWT translate malkhuth as "kingship" in verses referring to Jehovah?

  Hebrew is a tri-literal language, meaning the words are based on three letters, three consonants. The word for "king" is melek: m-l-k. That's why the name "Melchi-zedek" means KING of righteousness. The etymon of the word in Daniel 1:1 is m-l-k. Check out how the word "malkhuth" is used in all 91 occurrences in the Hebrew scriptures, and you will see that the meaning is always associated with being a m-l-k, a king.

  While it is quite true that some kings may be client kings or vassal kings or co-regents, etc., that is something we can only find out if we are given additional historical information about that king.

  Think of it this way: say you have a fragment of a letter written in Hebrew. The sentence is about some king, but the letter has been damaged at one spot, and the name is illegible. So all you have is the phrase: "In the third year of the reign of King .... " The Hebrew word is malkuth, so we would have, "In the third year of the [malkuth] of King ..."

  My point is that if you know Hebrew, you should be able to translate this Hebrew phrase, even if you don't have the name of the king or know anything about him.

  It is a matter of linguistics and translation.

  But by Scholar's reasoning, we wouldn't be able to translate our hypothetical fragment at all, because we don't know who the king is or whether he was a vassal to some other sovereign. Scholar wouldn't know whether he ought to read the fragment as: "In the third year of the kingship of King ...." or "In the third year of the reign of King ..."

  It's a moot question anyway, since the NWT itself translates "malkhuth" interchangeably as "kingship" and "reign" with regard to the same king. The alleged difference between "kingship" and "reign" doesn't exist.

  Marjorie
• 
  39

  MUST READ - NEWSPAPER ARTICLE

  by SHUNNED FATHER in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  calgary herald

  credit: calgary herald archive

  credit: calgary herald archive

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  Alleymom

  Nosferatu --

  The Society encourages this. I remember reading it in a WT publication somewhere (possibly the blood brocure?)

  There was an Awake article with pictures of kids who died.

  http://www.cftf.com/comments/kidsdied.html
  
  Twelve-year-old Lisa Kosack died (no date given) in Canada after holding off transfusion therapy by threatening that she "would fight and kick the IV pole down and rip out the IV no matter how much it would hurt, and poke holes in the blood." (page 13)

  Marjorie
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  147

  586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed

  by Alleymom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  nabonidus -- 17 years.

  nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years.

  nabonidus -- 17 years

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  Alleymom

  I had a goofy thought today --

  Were any of you ever crazy about horse stories as a child? Did you ever read Walter Farley (The Black Stallion series) or Marguerite Henry?

  I can't remember which book featured a horse which was foaled very late in the year. He became a "yearling" while he was still very young, and it was awhile before he caught up to the other yearlings in form and development, but he eventually went on to become a champion. I can't remember if this was supposed to be a real horse (Man O'War, e.g.) or if it was a fictional one.

  All thoroughbreds are considered "yearlings" on the first New Year's Day after they are foaled, regardless of how many months old they actually are. It struck me today that this is sort of like the accession-year dating of the kings.

  In a nation which counted a king's first months of office as his "accession year" rather than "year 1" of his reign, he wasn't a "yearling" until the first New Year's Day after he took the throne.

  Of course, different nations observed different New Year days at different times in their history: a spring new year (Nisan), a summer new year (Thoth), or a fall new Year (Tishri). At least in horseracing, everyone's on the same calendar <s>.

  Marjorie