Posts by Alleymom

6

Nabonidus and Belshazzar by Raymond Philip Dougherty

by VM44 in

this book has been referenced by the watchtower when discussing the neo-babylonian period.. .

nabonidus and belshazzar: a study of the closing events of the neo-babylonian empire.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155635956x/ref=olp_product_details?ie=utf8&me=&seller=.

Alleymom

Bats in the Belfry -- Wow, thanks for posting all of those references and taking the time to highlight them!

VM44, post 6459: Did Professor Dougherty really say this in his book? *** hp chap. 3 p. 27 par. 16 Where Can You Find Guidance? *** For a long time critics claimed that Belshazzar never existed, but was invented by Daniel. In recent years, however, clay-tablet records have been unearthed and translated that agree with the details in Daniel’s account.For this reason, Professor R. P. Dougherty (Yale University) wrote that the Bible is more accurate than other writings and proves that the book of Daniel was written when the Bible indicates it was.—Nabonidus and Belshazzar

Look on page 199-200 of Dougherty's Nabonidus and Belshazzar, starting with section (i) on page 199. The WTS paraphrased Dougherty's words. He was talking about non-Babylonian records, and he says:

"...of all non-Babylonian records dealing with the situation at the close of the Neo-Babylonian empire the fifth chapter of Daniel ranks next to cuneiform literature in accuracy so far as outstanding events are concerned. The Scriptural account may be interpreted as excelling because it employs the name of Belshazzar, because it attributes royal power to Belshazzar, and because it recognizes that a dual rulership existed in the kingdom. Babylonian documents of the sixth century B.C. furnish clear-cut evidence of the correctness of these three basic historical nuclei contained in the Biblical narrative dealing with the fall of Babylon." [italics are Dougherty's]

See footnote 671 on p. 200 regarding the dating of the fifth chapter of Daniel.

55

VAT 4956 Astronomical Observations

by VM44 in

starting a new thread to discuss the astronomical observations recorded in vat 4956..

Alleymom

Let's start by looking at:

The Lunar Three measurements recorded on astronomical diary VAT 4956 are:

Obverse, Line 4Month I, day 14The interval between sunrise and moonset.SR-MS4° = 16 minutesObverse, Line 11Month II, day 26The interval between moonrise and sunrise.MR-SR23° = 92 minutes
Obverse, Line 12Month III, day 1The interval between sunset and moonset.SS-MS20° = 80 minutes
Reverse, Line 5’Month XI, day 1The interval between sunset and moonset.SS-MS14.5° = 58 minutes
Reverse, Line 12’Month XII, day 1The interval between sunset and moonset.SS-MS25° = 100 minutes
Reverse, Line 16’Month XII, day 12The interval between sunrise and moonset.SR-MS1.5° = 6 minutes

Note that the word "obverse" means the front side of the tablet.
"Reverse," of course, is the back side of the tablet.

So we need to look at Sachs and Hunger's translation of the obverse (front side) of VAT 4956, Line 4.

That is found in volume 1 of their work Astronomical Diaries and Related Texts from Babylonia.
Here is a link: http://www.caeno.org/_Feat/pdf/F019_Translation.pdf

Look on Line 4 of the obverse side. The second half of the line says:

" On the 14 th , one god was seen with the other; sunrise to moonset: 4 o ."

That's the first of the six "Lunar Three" measurements.
Sunrise to moonset was 4° (time-degrees).
One time-degree is equal to 4 minutes.
So 4 ° = 16 minutes.
They are saying that on Month 1, day 14 (of the Babylonian calendar) there were 16 minutes between sunrise and moonset.

I am deliberately taking this extra slowly and going step by step so that anyone who wants to can follow along.
If you have ANY questions or don't get something, please say so.

55

VAT 4956 Astronomical Observations

by VM44 in

starting a new thread to discuss the astronomical observations recorded in vat 4956..

Alleymom

Big hugs to AnnOMaly! Thank you so much for posting my old chart! I have misplaced my original notes (I know they are here somewhere!), the jpegs are on an old computer, and when I went to the old thread on JWN the chart is just displayed as a teeny tiny thumbnail. Wow, you are amazing.

VM44 -- You have probably seen the response Dr. Steele sent me when I wrote to him a couple of weeks ago. I specifically drew his attention to footnote 18a. Dr. Steele's response is posted on the Part Two thread.

I would suggest that we work through the Lunar Three calculations very slowly, step by step, using the online astronomy program Sky View Cafe. It is easy to do. The Lunar Three intervals just involve looking up the times of sunrise, sunset, moonrise, and/or moonset for certain dates specified in VAT 4956 and then figuring out the elapsed time between two events.

#1 -- How much time elapsed between sunrise and moonset in Babylon on Month I, day 14 in the year 568 BCE?
That is the first of the Lunar Three measurements recorded on VAT 4956.
The measurement is on line 4 of the front ("obverse") side of the tablet.
According to VAT 4956, the time which elapsed between sunrise and moonset on that date was 4 ° (which equals 16 minutes.)

If we start with that question and go step by step through all six of the Lunar Three measurements recorded on VAT 4956, we can prove for ourselves that the Lunar Three measurements fit the year 568/567 BCE and DO NOT fit the year 588/587 BCE.

I am convinced that with a little help in explaining how to input the dates and location, anyone on this board could find the time of sunrise and moonset in Babylon on that date in history. And then it is very easy to calculate how much time elapsed between sunrise and moonset. I promise - no algebra or high school math is required!

55

VAT 4956 Astronomical Observations

by VM44 in

starting a new thread to discuss the astronomical observations recorded in vat 4956..

Alleymom

The Lunar Three measurements recorded on astronomical diary VAT 4956 are:

Obverse, Line 4 Month I, day 14 The interval between sunrise and moonset. SR-MS 4° = 16 minutes
Obverse, Line 11 Month II, day 26 The interval between moonrise and sunrise. MR-SR 23° = 92 minutes
Obverse, Line 12 Month III, day 1 The interval between sunset and moonset. SS-MS 20° = 80 minutes
Reverse, Line 5’ Month XI, day 1 The interval between sunset and moonset. SS-MS 14.5° = 58 minutes
Reverse, Line 12’ Month XII, day 1 The interval between sunset and moonset. SS-MS 25° = 100 minutes
Reverse, Line 16’ Month XII, day 12 The interval between sunrise and moonset. SR-MS 1.5° = 6 minutes

55

VAT 4956 Astronomical Observations

by VM44 in

starting a new thread to discuss the astronomical observations recorded in vat 4956..

Alleymom

The WTS knows about the importance of the Lunar Three measurements on VAT 4956. They refer to them in footnote 18a on page 28 of "When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed? Part Two," WT 11/1/2011. In that footnote they try to discount the findings of scholars F. Richard Stephenson and David M. Willis, who calculated the Lunar Three intervals on VAT 4956 and found them to be very accurate, to within four minutes (one time-degree).

I wrote about the Stephenson/Willis article on this board four years ago, so I immediately picked up on footnote 18a. Speaking of the Lunar Three measurements recorded by "ancient observers" on VAT 4956, the WTS states, "Such measurements were not reliable."

Stephenson & Willis were impressed that the measurements were accurate to within four minutes; the WT says the "measurements were not reliable." If we go through the Lunar Three calculations step by step in this thread we can see for ourselves whether or not the measurements are accurate.

(I did this once before, back in 2007. I ran the calculations for the year 568/567 BCE and also for Furuli's made-up calendar for 588/587 BCE. The Lunar Three measurements clearly rule out the WT's date.)

55

VAT 4956 Astronomical Observations

by VM44 in

starting a new thread to discuss the astronomical observations recorded in vat 4956..

Alleymom

VM44 --

What would you think about taking an easier approach for the first go-round on this?

If you are interested, we could just start by looking at the “Lunar Three” intervals on VAT 4956 and forget everything else for the moment. The so-called "Lunar Three" measurements just involve the times of sunrise, sunset, moonrise, and moonset, so they are quite easy to do.

When Rolf Furuli went through VAT 4956 line by line a few years ago, I pointed out that he omitted the sunrise-moonset, moonrise-sunrise, and sunset-moonset measurements recorded on six lines of VAT 4956. He looked at the other measurements on those lines, but he just skipped over the Lunar Three measurements.

And guess what? The “Lunar Three” intervals recorded on six lines of VAT 4956 are, by themselves, enough to disprove the WT’s date of 588/587 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year.

23

Looking for transcript of the "Miracle Wheat" trial

by Doug Mason in

as the title of this thread says, i am looking for the transcript of the "miracle wheat" trial.. any clues?.

thanks,.

doug.

Alleymom

Here's the cartoon in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

Brooklyn Daily Eagle, September 23, 1911

Edited to add -- In addition to the cartoon, see the article about Pastor Russell and the miracle wheat in the far right column.

I found this newspaper page at www.fultonhistory.com

23

Looking for transcript of the "Miracle Wheat" trial

by Doug Mason in

as the title of this thread says, i am looking for the transcript of the "miracle wheat" trial.. any clues?.

thanks,.

doug.

Alleymom

Masterji -

Click here

The section starts on p. 14 and the bits of transcript are on p. 17 & 18.

23

Looking for transcript of the "Miracle Wheat" trial

by Doug Mason in

as the title of this thread says, i am looking for the transcript of the "miracle wheat" trial.. any clues?.

thanks,.

doug.

Alleymom

There is a very brief transcript of a small part of the trial in The Way to Paradise, by W.E. Van Amburgh. See the section beginning on page 14.

Available on Google Books.

61

Watchtower admits the KISS method works - Nov 1, 2011 WT, p. 24

by Alleymom in

the following posts and graphics refer to the k.i.s.s.

(keep it simple, sweetie) approach to 587/586 bce,.

which i introduced on july 12, 2003.. here is a link to the original thread:.

Alleymom

Cadellin --

Thanks for the comment and the question!

Re your question about the Egibi tablets, VM44 had a whole thread on the Egibi bank tablets a few years ago, and I believe he has mentioned them in at least one of the threads currently running about Parts One and Two of the Jerusalem article. He has been especially interested in them for years.