Posts by Alleymom

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

You need to explain the difference between the use of kingship (NWT) or reign (KJV) used in Daniel 1:1. I fully appreciate that in the OT both terms are employed in the NWT. Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign as shown by the fact that kingship is given specific treatment in major reference worksas opposed to reign which is simply a chronological datum which is omitted in Daniel 1:1.

Haven't you got the cart before the horse <smiling>?
I suggest starting with the Hebrew word that is used in the Masoretic text.

Here's how I think the process should go:

Do some research on what the Hebrew word means:

-- Consult lexicons
-- Make a thorough study of the 91 places where the word occurs in the Masoretic text.
-- Explore the etymology; look at related words.

Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign

If that is true, then you ought to be able to answer the questions in my message from last night (posted at 02:26, just a few posts back on the thread) very easily.

In particular:

--- If there is a big difference between "kingship" and "reign" then can you explain this:

The word "KINGSHIP" is used in reference to:

Jehovah
Jehoiakim (our Daniel 1:1 verse)
Saul
Solomon
David
Darius the Persian
Zedekiah
Evil-Merodach
Nebuchadnezzar
Belshazzar
Rehoboam You said "the word kingship suggests vassalage by implication". Is there an implication of vassalage with regard to Jehovah, Saul, Solomon, David, and Nebuchadnezzar?

The word "REIGN" is used in reference to:

Asa
Ahaz
Josiah
Ahasuerus
Artaxerxes
Darius the Persian

Regards,

Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

Regarding Daniel 1:1 the translation reads 'kingship' and not 'reign' as in the NWT, There is a big difference between these two words

Scholar ---

--- If there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use them interchangeably for the same Hebrew word, as I posted above?

--- And if there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use the word "kingship" instead of "reign" to refer to Jehovah in the book of Psalms and in 1 Chronicles 28:5?

--- And if there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use both terms in regard to Darius the Persian? Ezra 4:5 says "the reign of Darius the king of Persia" but Nehemiah 12:22 says "the kingship of Darius the Persian".

--- If there is a big difference between "kingship" and "reign" then can you explain this:

The word "KINGSHIP" is used in reference to:

Jehovah
Jehoiakim (our Daniel 1:1 verse)
Saul
Solomon
David
Darius the Persian
Zedekiah
Evil-Merodach
Nebuchadnezzar
Belshazzar
Rehoboam You said "the word kingship suggests vassalage by implication". Is there an implication of vassalage with regard to Jehovah, Saul, Solomon, David, and Nebuchadnezzar?

The word "REIGN" is used in reference to:

Asa
Ahaz
Josiah
Ahasuerus
Artaxerxes
Darius the Persian

Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

I did not say that the translation 'kingship' means vassalage at all but the fact is that Jehoiakim was a vassal to Neb. The word kingship suggests vassalage by implication and does just mean reign as a pure chronological datum. In other words one needs to becareful in imputing a chronological datim to this verse as the NWT uses kingship rather than reign.

Scholar --

How does the word "kingship" suggest "vassalage"? I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please clarify this for me? Are you saying that the Hebrew word "malkhuth" does not imply vassalage, but the English word "kingship" does suggest "vassalage" "by implication"?

This cannot be. First of all, I am unaware of any English dictionary or Hebrew lexicon which supports the claim that kingship implies vassalage.Secondly, the NWT uses kingship" to refer to God's reign.

Ps 103:19 Jehovah himself has firmly established his throne in the very heavens;And over everything his own kingship has held domination. (NWT) Ps 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts and the glory of the splendor of his kingship (NWT)

Ps 145:13 You r kingship is a kingship for all times indefinite, and your dominion is throughout all successive generations (NWT)

I looked at all 91 occurrences of the word "malkuth" =

tWkl]m = Strong's #4438, in the NWT.

I found that the NWT translators render the Hebrew word in the following ways:

KingshipReignKingdom
Royal
Realm
Royal Realm
Royal dignity
Royally
Becoming King (with a footnote)
Kingship and reign are used interchangeably.

Compare Daniel 1:1 (In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi´a·kim the king of Judah) with the following verses:

2 Chron. 3:2 -- Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign.2 Chron 15:10 --- So they were collected together at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of A´sa’s reign. (NWT)

2 Chron 15:19 --- As for war, it did not occur down to the thirty-fifth year of A´sa’s reign (NWT)

2 Chron 16:1 -- In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of A´sa, Ba´a·sha the king of Israel came up against Judah and began to build Ra´mah, so as not to allow anyone to go out or come in to A´sa the king of Judah. (NWT)

2 Chron 16:12 -- And A´sa in the thirty-ninth year of his reign developed an ailment in his feet until he was very sick; and even in his sickness he searched not for Jehovah but for the healers (NWT)

2 Chron 29:19 --- And all the utensils that King A´haz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah. (NWT)

2 Chron 35:19 -- In the eighteenth year of Jo·si´ah’s reign this passover was held (NWT)

Ezra 4:5 --- and hiring counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Da·ri´us the king of Persia (NWT)

Ezra 4:6 --- And in the reign of A·has·u·e´rus, at the start of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem

Ezra 7:1 --- And after these things in the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia, Ez´ra the son of Se·rai´ah the son of Az·a·ri´ah the son of Hil·ki´ah (NWT)

Ezra 8:1 --- Now these were the heads of their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king out of Babylon (NWT)

Esther 2:16 --- Then Esther was taken to King A·has·u·e´rus at his royal house in the tenth month, that is, the month Te´beth, in the seventh year of his reign (NWT)

Here are all 91 occurrences of the word in the Bible. The KJV translation is listed first, followed by the NWT. To make it less tedious to read through this long list, I have highlighted some of the places where the NWT renders "malkuth" with a word other than "kingship". I managed to put the first few sets of verses in boxes, but then the formatting became erratic.

Nu 24:7 (KJV)He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.

Water keeps trickling from his two leather buckets,And his seed is by many waters.His king also will be higher than A´gag,And his kingdom will be lifted up. (NWT)

1 Sa 20:31 (KJV) For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.
For all the days that the son of Jes´se is alive on the ground, you and your kingship will not be firmly established. So now send and fetch him to me, for he is destined for death. (NWT)

1 Ki 2:12 (KJV)Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
As for Sol´o·mon, he sat down upon the throne of David his father; and gradually his
kingship became very firmly established. (NWT)

1 Ch 11:10 (KJV)These also are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who strengthened themselves with him in his kingdom , and with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of the LORD concerning Israel.
Now these are the heads of the mighty men that belonged to David, holding strongly with him in his
kingship together with all Israel, to make him king according to Jehovah’s word concerning Israel. (NWT)

1 Ch 12:23 (KJV)And these are the numbers of the bands that were ready armed to the war, and came to David to Hebron, to turn the kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD.
And these were the numbers of the heads of those equipped for the army that came to David at He´bron to turn the
kingship of Saul over to him according to Jehovah’s order. (NWT)

1 Ch 14:2 (KJV)And David perceived that the LORD had confirmed him king over Israel, for his kingdom was lifted up on high, because of his people Israel.

And David came to know that Jehovah had firmly established him as king over Israel, for his kingship was highly exalted on account of his people Israel (NWT)

1 Ch 17:11 (KJV)And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom .

And it must occur that when your days have come to the full [for you] to go [to be] with your forefathers, I shall certainly raise up your seed after you that will come to be one of your sons, and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingship . (NWT)

1 Ch 17:14 (KJV) But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite, and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite. (NWT)

1 Ch 22:10 (KJV) He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

It is he that will build a house to my name, and he himself will become a son to me, and I a father to him. And I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingship firmly over Israel to time indefinite.’ (NWT)

1 Ch 26:31 (KJV) Among the Hebronites was Jerijah the chief, even among the Hebronites, according to the generations of his fathers. In the fortieth year of the reign of David they were sought for, and there were found among them mighty men of valour at Jazer of Gilead.
Of the He´bron·ites, Je·ri´jah was the head of the He´bron·ites by its generations by forefathers. In the fortieth year of David’s kingship they were sought out, and valiant, mighty men came to be found among them in Ja´zer in Gil´e·ad (NWT)

1 Ch 28:5 (KJV) And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

and out of all my sons (for many are the sons whom Jehovah has given me) he then chose Sol´o·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel (NWT)

1 Ch 28:7 (KJV)Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
And I shall certainly establish his kingship firmly to time indefinite if he will be strongly resolved to do my commandments and my judicial decisions, as at this day. (NWT)

1 Ch 29:25 (KJV) And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel. And Jehovah continued to make Sol´o·mon surpassingly great before the eyes of all Israel and to put upon him such royal dignity as had not come to be upon any king before him over Israel. (NWT)

1 Ch 29:29-30 (KJV) Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer, With all his reign and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all the kingdoms of the countries.

... together with all his kingship and his mightiness and the times that had passed over him and over Israel and over all the kingdoms of the lands. (NWT)

2 Ch 1:1 (KJV) And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.

And Sol´o·mon the son of David continued to get strength in his kingship , and Jehovah his God was with him and kept making him surpassingly great (NWT)

2 Ch 2:1 (KJV) And Solomon determined to build an house for the name of the LORD, and an house for his kingdom. Sol´o·mon now gave the word to build a house to Jehovah’s name and a house for his kingship (NWT)

2 Ch 2:12 (KJV) Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom .

And Hi´ram went on to say: "Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who made the heavens and the earth, because he has given to David the king a wise son, experienced in discretion and understanding, who will build a house to Jehovah and a house for his kingship (NWT)

2 Ch 3:2 (KJV) And he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign .

Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign. (NWT)

2 Ch 7:18 (KJV)Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom , according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

I will also establish the throne of your kingship, just as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘There will not a man of yours be cut off from ruling over Israel. (NWT)

2 Ch 11:17 (KJV) So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

And they kept strengthening the kingship of Judah and confirming Re·ho·bo´am the son of Sol´o·mon for three years, for they walked in the way of David and Sol´o·mon for three years (NWT)

2 Ch 12:1 (KJV) And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom , and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.

And it came about that, as soon as the kingship of Re·ho·bo´am was firmly established and as soon as he was strong, he left the law of Jehovah, and also all Israel with him (NWT)

2 Ch 15:10 (KJV) So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa.

So they were collected together at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of A´sa’s reign. (NWT)

2 Ch 15:19 (KJV) And there was no more war unto the five and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa.

As for war, it did not occur down to the thirty-fifth year of A´sa’s reign (NWT)

2 Ch 16:1 (KJV) In the six and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa Baasha king of Israel came up against Judah, and built Ramah, to the intent that he might let none go out or come in to Asa king of Judah.

In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of A´sa, Ba´a·sha the king of Israel came up against Judah and began to build Ra´mah, so as not to allow anyone to go out or come in to A´sa the king of Judah. (NWT)

2 Ch 16:12 (KJV) And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.

And A´sa in the thirty-ninth year of his reign developed an ailment in his feet until he was very sick; and even in his sickness he searched not for Jehovah but for the healers (NWT)

2 Ch 20:30 (KJV) So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.

Thus the royal realm of Je·hosh´a·phat had no disturbance, and his God continued to give him rest all around. (NWT)

2 Ch 29:19 (KJV) Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

And all the utensils that King A´haz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah. (NWT)

2 Ch 33:13 (KJV) And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom . Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.

And he kept praying to Him, so that He let himself be entreated by him and He heard his request for favor and restored him to Jerusalem to his kingship ; and Ma·nas´seh came to know that Jehovah is the [true] God. (NWT)

2 Ch 35:19 (KJV) In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah was this passover kept.

In the eighteenth year of Jo·si´ah’s reign this passover was held (NWT)

2 Ch 36:20 (KJV) And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; (NWT)

2 Ch 36:22 (KJV) Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom , and put it also in writing, saying,

And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, so that he caused a cry to pass through all his kingdom , and also in writing, saying (NWT)

Ezr 1:1 (KJV) Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom , and put it also in writing, saying,

And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm , and also in writing, saying (NWT)

Ezr 4:5 (KJV) And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

and hiring counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Da·ri´us the king of Persia (NWT)

Ezr 4:6 (KJV) And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign , wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.

And in the reign of A·has·u·e´rus, at the start of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem

Ezr 7:1 (KJV) Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,

And after these things in the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia, Ez´ra the son of Se·rai´ah the son of Az·a·ri´ah the son of Hil·ki´ah (NWT)

Ezr 8:1 (KJV) These are now the chief of their fathers, and this is the genealogy of them that went up with me from Babylon, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king.

Now these were the heads of their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king out of Babylon (NWT)

Ne 9:35 (KJV) For they have not served thee in their kingdom, and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them, and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them, neither turned they from their wicked works.

And they themselves—during their kingdom and amid your abundant good things that you gave to them and in the broad and fat land that you made available for them, they did not serve you and did not turn back from their bad practices. (NWT)

Ne 12:22 (KJV) The Levites in the days of Eliashib, Joiada, and Johanan, and Jaddua, were recorded chief of the fathers: also the priests, to the reign of Darius the Persian.

The Levites in the days of E·li´a·shib, Joi´a·da and Jo·ha´nan and Jad´du·a were recorded as heads of paternal houses, also the priests, down till the kingship of Da·ri´us the Persian. (NWT)

Es 1:2 (KJV) That in those days, when the king Ahasuerus sat on the throne of his kingdom , which was in Shushan the palace,

[that] in those days as King A·has·u·e´rus was sitting upon his royal throne, which was in Shu´shan the castle (NWT)

Es 1:4 (KJV) When he shewed the riches of his glorious kingdom and the honour of his excellent majesty many days, even an hundred and fourscore days.

when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom and the honor [and] the beauty of his greatness for many days, a hundred and eighty days. (NWT)

Es 1:7 (KJV) And they gave them drink in vessels of gold, (the vessels being diverse one from another,) and royal wine in abundance, according to the state of the king. *royal wine = wine of the kingdom

And there was a passing of wine to drink in gold vessels; and the vessels were different from one another, and the royal wine was in great quantity, according to the means of the king (NWT)

Es 1:9 (KJV) Also Vashti the queen made a feast for the women in the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus.

Also, Vash´ti the queen herself held a banquet for the women at the royal house that belonged to King A·has·u·e´rus. (NWT)

Es 1:11 (KJV) To bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal , to shew the people and the princes her beauty: for she was fair to look on.

to bring Vash´ti the queen in the royal headdress before the king, to show the peoples and the princes her loveliness; for she was beautiful in appearance. (NWT)

Es 1:14 (KJV) And the next unto him was Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king’s face, and which sat the first in the kingdom;

a nd those closest to him were Car·she´na, She´thar, Ad·ma´tha, Tar´shish, Me´res, Mar·se´na, [and] Me·mu´can, seven princes of Persia and Me´di·a, having access to the king, [and] who were sitting first in the kingdom ): (NWT)

Es 1:19 (KJV) If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.

If to the king it does seem good, let a royal word go out from his person, and let it be written among the laws of Persia and Me´di·a, that it may not pass away, that Vash´ti may not come in before King A·has·u·e´rus; and her royal dignity let the king give to a companion of hers, a woman better than she is (NWT)

Es 1:20 (KJV) And when the king’s decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire , (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.

And the decree of the king that he will make must be heard in all his realm (for it is vast), and all the wives themselves will give honor to their owners, the great as well as the small. (NWT)

Es 2:3 (KJV) And let the king appoint officers in all the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather together all the fair young virgins unto Shushan the palace, to the house of the women, unto the custody of Hege the king’s chamberlain, keeper of the women; and let their things for purification be given them:

and let the king appoint commissioners in all the jurisdictional districts of his realm, and let them collect together all the young women, virgins, beautiful in appearance, at Shu´shan the castle, at the house of the women in charge of Heg´a·i the king’s eunuch, the guardian of the women; and let there be a giving of their massages (NWT)

Es 2:16 (KJV) So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign.

T hen Esther was taken to King A·has·u·e´rus at his royal house in the tenth month, that is, the month Te´beth, in the seventh year of his reign (NWT)

Es 2:17 (KJV) And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti.

And the king came to love Esther more than all the other women, so that she gained more favor and loving-kindness before him than all the other virgins. And he proceeded to put the royal headdress upon her head and make her queen instead of Vash´ti (NWT)

Es 3:6 (KJV) And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.

But it was despicable in his eyes to lay hand upon Mor´de·cai alone, for they had told him about Mor´de·cai’s people; and Ha´man began seeking to annihilate all the Jews who were in all the realm of A·has·u·e´rus, Mor´de·cai’s people (NWT)

Es 3:8 (KJV) And Haman said unto king Ahasuerus, There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom ; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king’s laws: therefore it is not for the king’s profit to suffer them.
And Ha´man proceeded to say to King A·has·u·e´rus: "There is one certain people scattered and separated among the peoples in all the jurisdictional districts of your
realm ; and their laws are different from all other people’s, and the king’s own laws they are not performing, and for the king it is not appropriate to let them alone. (NWT)

Es 4:14 (KJV) For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father’s house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
For if you are altogether silent at this time, relief and deliverance themselves will stand up for the Jews from another place; but as for you and your father’s house, YOU people will perish. And who is there knowing whether it is for a time like this that you have attained to
royal dignity ? (NWT)

Es 5:1 (KJV) Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house, over against the king’s house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

And it came about on the third day that Esther went dressing up royally , after which she took her stand in the inner courtyard of the king’s house opposite the king’s house, while the king was sitting on his royal throne in the royal house opposite the entrance of the house (NWT)

Es 5:3 (KJV) Then said the king unto her, What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be even given thee to the half of the kingdom.

T hen the king said to her: "What do you have, O Esther the queen, and what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be given to you! (NWT)

Es 5:6 (KJV) And the king said unto Esther at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? even to the half of the kingdom it shall be performed.

In time the king said to Esther during the banquet of wine: "What is your petition? Let it even be granted you! And what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be done! (NWT)

Es 6:8 (KJV) Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head:

let them bring royal apparel with which the king does clothe himself and a horse upon which the king does ride and on the head of which the royal headdress has been put. (NWT)

Es 7:2 (KJV) And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom .

The king now said to Esther also on the second day during the banquet of wine: "What is your petition, O Esther the queen? Let it even be given to you. And what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be done (NWT)

Es 8:15 (KJV) And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.

As for Mor´de·cai, he went forth from before the king in royal apparel of blue and linen, with a great crown of gold, and a fine-fabric cloak, even of wool dyed reddish purple. And the city of Shu´shan itself cried out shrilly and was joyful (NWT)

Es 9:30 (KJV) And he sent the letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,

Then he sent written documents to all the Jews in the one hundred and twenty-seven jurisdictional districts, the realm of A·has·u·e´rus, [in] words of peace and truth

Ps 45:6 (KJV) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness (NWT)

Ps 103:19 (KJV) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Jehovah himself has firmly established his throne in the very heavens;And over everything his own kingship has held domination. (NWT)

Ps 145:11 (KJV)
They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom , and talk of thy power;

About the glory of your kingship they will talk,A nd about your mightiness they will speak (NWT)

Ps 145:12 (KJV) To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.

T o make known to the sons of men his mighty acts And the glory of the splendor of his kingship (NWT)

Ps 145:13 (KJV) Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

Your kingship is a kingship for all times indefinite, And your dominion is throughout all successive generations (NWT)

Ec 4:14 (KJV) For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor

For he has gone forth from the prison house itself to become king, although in the kingship of this one he had been born as one of little means (NWT)

Je 10:7 (KJV) Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms , there is none like unto thee.

Who should not fear you, O King of the nations, for to you it is fitting; because among all the wise ones of the nations and among all their kingships there is in no way anyone like you (NWT)

Je 49:34 (KJV) The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,

This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning E´lam in the beginning of the kingship of Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah, saying (NWT)

Je 52:31 (KJV) And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,

At length it came about in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth day of the month, that E´vil-mer´o·dach the king of Babylon, in the year of his becoming king , raised up the head of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah and proceeded to bring him forth from the prison house (NWT) * Lit., "his kingship." Heb., mal·khu·thoh´. [The preceding is the NWT's own footnote; it is not a note from me -- Marjorie]

Da 1:1 (KJV) In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi´a·kim the king of Judah, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it (NWT)

Da 1:20 (KJV) And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm .

And as regards every matter of wisdom [and] understanding that the king inquired about from them, he even got to find them ten times better than all the magic-practicing priests [and] the conjurers that were in all his royal realm (NWT)

Da 2:1 (KJV) And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.

And in the second year of the kingship of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar dreamed dreams; and his spirit began to feel agitated, and his very sleep was made to be something beyond him (NWT)

Da 8:1 (KJV) In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

In the third year of the kingship of Bel·shaz´zar the king, there was a vision that appeared to me, even me, Daniel, after the one appearing to me at the start (NWT)

Da 8:22 (KJV) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power. (NWT)

Da 8:23 (KJV) And in the latter time of their kingdom , when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And in the final part of their kingdom , as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. (NWT)

Da 9:1 (KJV) In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

In the first year of Da·ri´us the son of A·has·u·e´rus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chal·de´ans; (NWT)

Da 10:13 (KJV) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia (NWT)

Da 11:2 (KJV) And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

And now what is truth I shall tell to you: "Look! There will yet be three kings standing up for Persia, and the fourth one will amass greater riches than all [others]. And as soon as he has become strong in his riches, he will rouse up everything against the kingdom of Greece (NWT)

Da 11:4 (KJV) And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

And when he will have stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens, but not to his posterity and not according to his dominion with which he had ruled; because his kingdom will be uprooted, even for others than these. (NWT)

Da 11:9 (KJV) So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom , and shall return into his own land.

And he will actually come into the kingdom of the king of the south and go back to his own soil (NWT)

Da 11:17 (KJV) He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom , and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

And he will set his face to come with the forcefulness of his entire kingdom , and there will be equitable [terms] with him; and he will act effectively. And as regards the daughter of womankind, it will be granted to him to bring her to ruin. And she will not stand, and she will not continue to be his (NWT)

Da 11:20 (KJV) Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom : but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

"And there must stand up in his position one who is causing an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom , and in a few days he will be broken, but not in anger nor in warfare. (NWT)

Da 11:21 (KJV) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom : but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

"And there must stand up in his position one who is to be despised, and they will certainly not set upon him the dignity of [the] kingdom ; and he will actually come in during a freedom from care and take hold of [the] kingdom by means of smoothness.

Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

I'm having trouble with the formatting. I just want to know, can others see the Hebrew letters in the word I posted in the above message?

I can see them, but it could be because I have a Hebraica font installed on my word processor.

M.

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

Regarding Daniel 1:1 the translation reads 'kingship' and not 'reign' as in the NWT

Scholar, several days ago I posted all 91 Bible verses in which the Hebrew word

tWkl]m

occurs. I gave you the Strong's reference (#4438) and asked you how the NWT translates that word in the other 90 places in which it occurs.

Have you ever checked a Hebrew lexicon to see whether the word can possibly mean "vassalage"? Have you had time to read through all 91 Bible verses to see how the word is used in Scripture?

having made up your mind on the matter

I am always open to new information and points of view, which is why I took the time to go to the university library and check out your Eliezer Shulman reference.

I really would like to know how the NWT translates the word the other 90 times it occurs.

In fact, I think I'll go look up those verses in the NWT right now.

Peace,Marjorie

147

586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed

by Alleymom in

nabonidus -- 17 years.

nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years.

nabonidus -- 17 years

Alleymom

Alleymom, remind me never to take you on in a debate. You carried this subject forward perfectly, by explaining the concept simply, but keeping your thorough research in reserve.

Jgnat --

Thanks!

One of these days I'm going to have to start organizing my large collection of journal articles. I've been looking through my stuff recently, and I have an amazing number of articles from the Journal of Cuneiform Studies, Zeitschrift fur Assyriologie, JNES, JAOS, etc., that would probably be of interest to a few people on this board.

Regards,
Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

I just posted a long list of data from Parker & Dubberstein's Babylonian Chronology and The Cambridge Ancient History over in the K.I.S.S. thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

Scholar,

There are dated cuneiform tablets for each year of each neo-Babylonian king. By looking at the last dated tablet for each king and observing the time which elapsed between that tablet and the first tablet dated to his successor, it is easy to see that the chain is unbroken.

Furthermore, the WTS agrees with those regnal lengths in the 1965 article I have cited several times previously.

If you start with the WT's own date of 539 and count backwards through the kings as they are listed in the 1965 WT article, you will arrive at 586/7 for the destruction of Jerusalem.

The unbroken chain of dated cuneiform tablets shows that there were no other kings, and it also shows that none of the kings reigned longer than the time stated in the 1965 WT article.

See the other thread for full information.

Marjorie

147

586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed

by Alleymom in

nabonidus -- 17 years.

nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years.

nabonidus -- 17 years

Alleymom

They are simply selling that we don't have documents supporting the lengths of all these kings' reigns

Of course we do!

And that's rather the point of this thread. I have tried to take a K.I.S.S. approach for the benefit of those who are not interested in details involving Ptolemy, astronomical diaries, etc.

But for those who need to be convinced and/or reassured that the relative chronology is firmly established, I will go into more detail in this post.

This post contains information and quotes from:

Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C. - A.D. 75, Brown University Studies, Vol. XIX. Richard A. Parker, Waldo H. Dubberstein, Brown University Press:1956, pp. 12-13. (quotes from 4 th printing, 1971.)

The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 2, second edition, 1991, pp. 242-243.

Nabonidus and Belshazzar. Raymond Philip Dougherty,Yale University Press: 1929.

Background:

--- There are dated cuneiform tablets for each year of each king of the neo-Babylonian empire.

--- These tablets are original, contemporary documents, not later Seleucid-era copies.

--- They are dated by month/day/year of the king.

--- There are literally tens of thousands of cuneiform texts for the neo-Babylonian era. Tablets have been found from many different cities, from private as well as official archives. These reflect the ordinary details of every day life for the men and women of that time. There are contracts, invoices, deeds of sale, records of taxes and tithes, accounts of herds, marriages, sales of slaves, etc. Think of the wide variety of dated papers you have in your own home, going back many years, and you will have an idea of the kinds of dated tablets that we have for the neo-Babylonian period.

The tablets showing the day of the month and the name and year of one king are followed by tablets with the name of the new king immediately thereafter, sometimes within days. This provides an unbroken chain linking each of the kings with his successor.

The Watchtower has cited Raymond Philip Dougherty's Nabonidus and Belshazzar, Yale University Press: 1929. It is interesting to note that Dougherty, in 1929, could already state that the list of kings with their reigns "is based upon more than two thousand dated cuneiform documents. It must therefore be accepted as the ultimate criterion in the determination of Neo-Babylonian chronological questions." (p.10)

In 1956 Parker and Dubberstein printed a list of cuneiform tablets which give evidence for the beginning and end of each king's reign. The WT both cites and quotes from Parker and Dubberstein's book. They use it to establish their date of 539 B.C.E.

In the years since Parker and Dubberstein first published their lists of tablets which establish the beginning and end of each king's reign, many additional texts have been published. They all confirm the same regnal years (see excerpts from the 1991 edition of The Cambridge Ancient History, pp. 242-243, quoted at the bottom of this message.)

Note:

--- We know the name of each king.

--- We have dated cuneiform tablets (contracts, legal documents, bills of sale, invoices, inventories, etc.) for each year of each king.

--- We have dated cuneiform tablets for the last year of each king, and these are followed by dated tablets for the new king.

Summary of data from Parker and Dubberstein (see below for further details):

--- Dates given as: month/day/ year of reign ---P&D have converted the dates and I have included those for ease of comparison. But, remember, the cuneiform documents establish a relative chronology. So the year on the actual tablet is 21 st Nabopolassar, not "605 BCE".

Nabopolassar: last dated text: V/1/21 = August 8, 605 BCE Nebuchadnezzar: first dated text: VI/12/acc = Sept. 18, 605 BCE

Nebuchadnezzar: last dated text, from Uruk: VI/26/43 = October 8, 562 BCE Amel-Marduk: first dated text, from Sippar: VI/26/acc = October 8, 562 BCE Amel-Marduk: last dated text: V/17/2 = August 7, 560 BCE Neriglissar: first dated text: V/23/acc = August 13, 560 BCE Neriglissar: last dated text: I/2/4 = April 12, 556 BCE Labashi-Marduk: first dated text: I/23/acc = May 3, 556 BCE Labashi-Marduk: last dated text: III/12/acc = June 20, 556 BCE

Nabonidus: first dated text: II/15/acc = May 25, 556 BCE (see note below)Nabonidus: last dated text: VII/17/17 = October 13, 539 BCE (see note below)

Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C. - A.D. 75 , Richard A. Parker, Waldo H. Dubberstein, Brown University Press:1956, pp. 12-13.

Dates are given as Month/Day/Year Month refers to the Babylonian month Acc. = accession year

A complete list of abbreviations is at the end.

-------- the following is an excerpt from Parker & Dubberstein:

NEBUCHADNEZZAR II

Evidence for Beginning of Reign

VI/l/acc. (Sept. 7, 605), Nebuchadnezzar ascends the throne in Babylon (Chronicle, BM21946. II. 10-11, Wiseman, op. cit. pp. 27 and 69).

VI/12/acc.

(Sept. 18, 605) (unpub. text NBC 4746, Goetze, op. cit. p. 44). VI/18/acc. (Sept. 24,605), Sippar (unpub. text BM 49524, Wiseman, op. cit., p. 85, note to 1.11).

VII/5/acc

. (Oct. 11, 605) (BM 92472 = Strassmaier, Nabuchodonosor, No.2). A collation by Sachs and Wiseman has shown that the text from Sippar (Strassmaier, loc. cit.) thought to be from the 4th month is correctly to be dated VII/-/acc.

Evidence for End of Reign

VI/14/43 (Sept. 26, 562)

, Uruk (Pohl, NBRU I 18).

VI/21/43 (Oct. 3,562),

Uruk (unpub. text NCBT 286, Goetze, op. cit. p. 44).

VI/26/43 (Oct. 8, 562),

Uruk (Contenau, TCL XII 58).

The first tablet dated to Amel-Marduk (see below) comes from Sippar( ?) and is dated on the same day as the last tablet of Nebuchadnezzar from Uruk. Accordingly

Nebuchadnezzar died during the first days of October, 562.

AMEL- MARDUK

Evidence for Beginning of Reign

VI/26/acc. (Oct. 8, 562) , Sippar? (B. T. A. Evetts, Inscriptions of the Reigns of Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar, and Laborosoarchod ["Babylonische Texte" [III] Heft 6 B (Leipzig, 1892)] Evil-Merodach, No.1).

VII/19/acc

. (Oct. 31, 562), Babylon (ibid. No.2).

Evidence for End of Reign

V/13/2 (Aug. 3, 560), Babylon (unpub. text YBC3692, Goetze, op. cit. p. #).

V/17/2 (Aug. 7, 560)

(Clay, BE VIII 1, No.34).

Since the first text dated to Nergal-shar-usur was written at Babylon six days after the Clay text, the date of Amel-Marduk's death may be fixed between August 7 and August 13, 560.

NERGAL-SHAR-USUR

Evidence for Beginning of Reign

V /23 /acc. (Aug. 13, 560), [Babylon ?] (V AS III 40)

V /27 /acc. (Aug. 17,560),

Uruk (unpub. text NBC 4584, Goetze, op. cit. p. 44).

Evidence for End of Reign

112/4 (Apr. 12, 556),

Shahrinu (Evetts, op. cit., Neriglissar, Nos. 68 and 69). I ? /6/4 (Apr. 16,556), Uruk (unpub. text YBC 3433, Goetze, op. cit. p. 44). Nergal-shar-usur's death occurred in late April or early May, 556.

LABASHI-MARDUK

Evidence for Beginning of Reign

I/23/acc. (May 3, 556)

, Uruk (unpub. text NBC 4534, ibid.)

II/12/acc. (May 22, 556),

Sippar ? (Evetts, op. cit., Laborosoarchod, No.2).

Evidence for End of Reign

III/9/acc. (June 17, 556)

(Strassmaier in Actes du huitieme Congres international des orientalistes, tenu en I889 a Stockholm et a Christiania, 2. partie [Leide, 1893] section semitique [B] at end, No.15)

III/12/acc. (June 20, 556),

Sippar ? (Evetts, op. cit., Laborosoarchod, No.1).

Labashi-Marduk seems to have been recognized as king only in May and June, 556,

and even then possibly not throughout Babylonia (see under NABUNAID). Berossus (frag.14) apud Josephus Against Apion i. 20 states that Labashi- Marduk ruled nine ( ' ennea ) months. If Berossus' own manuscript used a numeral instead of the spelled-out number, confusion between q (9) and , B (2) could easily have arisen; hence the original text may have said 2 months.

NABUNAID

Evidence for Beginning of Reign

II/15/acc. (May 25, 556)

, NA.SU.SA.KU.NA (Clay, BE VIII 1, No.39).

III/l/acc. (June 9, 556),

Sippar? (V AS VI 65; see Kugler, SSBII 405-8).

III/18/acc. (June 26, 556),

Sippar (Strassmaier, Nabonidus, No.1).

III/23/acc. (July 1,556)

Uruk (Dougherty, REN, No. 1).3

III/26/acc. (July 4, 556),

Sippar (Strassmaier, Nabonidus, No.2).

Nabunaid must have been a contender for the throne almost from the death of Nergal-shar-usur.

By the end of June, 556, he was sole ruler of Babylonia.

Evidence for End of Reign

VI/3/17 to VI/28/17 (Aug. 31 to Sept. 25, 539)

, chiefly from Babylon and Sippar (Strassmaier, Nabonidus, Nos. 1046-52).

VI/6/17 (Sept. 3, 539)

, Uruk (Contenau, TCL XII 121; line 19 reads VI/6/18, but in line 1 the date is given as VI/6/17; year 18 is impossible, so we assume either a scribal error or an error by Contenau).*

VI/25/17 (Sept. 22, 539)

(unpub. text MLC 1011, Goetze, op. cit. p. 44). VII/4?/17 (Sept. 30,539), Larsa (unpub. text YBC 7385, ibid.).

VII/8/17 (Oct. 4, 539)

, Uruk (Dougherty, REN, No.189). VII/17/17 (Oct. 13, 539), Uruk (Dougherty, GCCI 1390). The Nabunaid Chronicle (last published by Smith, BHT, pp. 98-123 and Pls. XI-XIV) iii 14-18 states that Sippar fell to Persian forces VII/14/17 (Oct. 10, 539), that Babylon fell VII/16/17 (Oct. 12), and that Cyrus entered Babylon VIII/3/17 (Oct. 29). This fixes the end of Nabunaid's reign and the beginning of the reign of Cyrus.
Interestingly enough, the last tablet dated to Nabunaid from Uruk is dated the day after Babylon fell to Cyrus. News of its capture had not yet reached the southern city some 125 miles distant. Strassmaier , Nabonidus, No.1054, has the date VIII/10/17; but the month sign is shaded, and in view of known facts this date cannot be accepted.

--------------- end quotation from Parker and Dubberstein ---------

LIST OF ABBREVIATIONS (used in Parker and Dubberstein)

A = Chicago. University. Oriental Institute Museum. Asiatic collection. (Followed by registration number.)

AJSL = American journal of Semitic languages and literatures (Chicago etc., 1884-1941).

Assurbanipal = STRECK, MAXIMILIAN. Assurbanipal und die letzten assyrischen Konige bis zum Untergange Nineveh's ("Vorderasiatische Bibliothek" VII [3 vols.; Leipzig, 1916]).

BE = Pennsylvania University. The Babylonian expedition of the University of Pennsylvania. Series A: Cuneiform texts, ed. by H. V. HILPRECHT (Philadelphia, 1893-1914).

BE VIII 1 = CLAY, ALBERT T. Legal and commercial transactions dated in the Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian and Persian periods (1908).

BE IX = HILPRECHT, H. V., and CLAY, ALBERT T. Business documents of Murashu sons of Nippur dated in the reign of Artaxerxes I (1898).

BE X = CLAY, ALBERT T. Business documents of Murashu sons of Nippur dated in the reign of Darius II (1904).

BHT = SMITH, SIDNEY. Babylonian historical texts relating to the capture and downfall of Babylon (London, 1924).

BM British Museum.

BRLM = Babylonian records in the library of J. Pierpont Morgan, ed. by ALBERT T. CLAY (New York, 1912-).

BRLM I = CLAY, ALBERT T. Babylonian business transactions of the first millennium B.C. (1912).

BRLM II = CLAY, ALBERT T. Legal documents from Erech dated in the Seleucid era (1913).

BRVU = KRUCKMANN, OLUF. Babylonische Rechts- und Verwaltungs- Urkunden aus der Zeit Alexanders und der Diadochen (Weimar, 1931).

Cambyses = STRASSMAIER, J. N. Inschriften von Cambyses, Konig von Babylon ("Babylonische Texte" [V] Heft 8-9 [Leipzig, 1890]).

CT = British Museum. Cuneiform texts from Babylonian tablets, &c., in the British Museum (London, 1896-).

Cyrus = STRASSMAIER, J. N. Inschriften von Cyrus, Konig von Babylon ("Babylonische Texte" [IV] Heft 7 [Leipzig, 1890]).

Darius = STRASSMAIER, J. N. Inschriften von Darius, Konig von Babylon ("Babylonische Texte" [VI] Heft 10-12 Leipzig, 1897]).

EGAB = SIDERSKY, DAVID. Etude sur la chronologie assyro-babylonienne (Paris, 1916).

GGCI = Goucher College, Baltimore. Goucher College cuneiform inscriptions (New Haven, 1923- ).

GGGI I = DOUGHERTY, R. P. Archives from Erech, time of Nebuchadrezzar and Nabonidus (1923).

GCCI II = DOUGHERTY, R. P. Archives from Erech, Neo-Babylonian and Persian periods (1933).

JCS = Journal of cuneiform studies (New Haven, 1947-).

JNES = Journal of Near Eastern studies (Chicago, 1942-).

LBART = Late Babylonian astronomical and related texts. Copied by T. G. PINCHES and J. N. STRASSMAIER. prepared for publication by A. J. SACHS with the co-operation of J. SCHAVMBERGER (Brown University Studies, Vol. 18, 1955).

LCE = KEISER, C. E. Letters and contracts from Erech written in the Neo- Babylonian period ("Babylonian inscriptions in the collection of James B. Nies" I [New Haven, 1918]).

MLC = Morgan Library Collection (at Yale).

Nabonidus = STRASSMAIER, J. N. Inschriften von Nabonidus, Konig von Babylon ("Babylonische Texte" [I, Heft 1-4] [Leipzig, 1889]).

Nabuchodonosor = STRASSMAIER, J. N. Inschriften von Nabuchodonosor, Konig von Babylon ("Babylonische Texte" [II, Heft 5-6] [Leipzig, 1889]).

NBC = Nies Babylonian Collection (at Yale).

NBD = MOORE, ELLEN W. Neo-Babylonian documents in the University of Michigan collection (Ann Arbor, 1939).

NBLE = CLAY, ALBERT T. Neo-Babylonian letters from Erech ("Yale oriental series. Babylonian texts" III [New Haven, 1919]).

NBRU = POHL, ALFRED. Neubabylonische Rechtsurkunden aus den Berliner Staatlichen Museen (" Analecta Orientalia" VIII-IX [Roma, 1933-34]).

NBRVT = KRUCKMANN, OLUF. Neubabylonische Rechts- und Verwaltungs- texte ("Texte und Materialien der Frau Professor Hilprecht Collection of Babylonian Antiquities im Eigentum der Universitat Jena" II/III [Leipzig, 1933]).

NCBT = Newell Collection of Babylonian Tablets (at Yale).

PBS = Pennsylvania. University. University Museum. Publications of the Babylonian section (Philadelphia, .911- ).

PBS II 1 = CLAY, ALBERT T. Business documents of Murashu sons of Nippur dated in the reign of Darius II (1912).

PSBA = Society of Biblical Archaeology, London. Proceedings (London, 1878/79-1918).

PTT = CAMERON, GEORGE G. Persepolis treasury tablets ("Oriental Insti- tute Publications" LXV [Chicago, 1948]).

RA = Revue d'assyriologie et d'archeologie orientale (Paris, 1884-).

RECC = TREMAYNE, ARCH. Records from Erech, time of Cyrus and Cambyses ("Yale oriental series. Babylonian texts" VII [1925]).

REN = DOUGHERTY, R. P. Records from Erech, time of Nabonidus ("Yale oriental series. Babylonian texts" VI [1920]).

SSB = KUGLER, FRANZ X. Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel (2 vols. and 3 supplements; Miinster, 1907-35).

TCL = Paris. Musee national du Louvre. Textes cuneiformes (Paris, 1910--).

TCL IX = CONTENAU, GEORGES. Contrats et lettres d' Assyrie et de Babylonie (1926).

TCL XII-XIII = CONTENAU, GEORGES. Contrats neo-babyloniens. I-II (1927-29).

UCP = California University. Publications in Semitic philology (Berkeley, 1907-).

UCP IX 1 = LUTZ, H. F. Neo-Babylonian administrative documents from Erech (1927).

UET IV = Ur excavations, texts IV. H. H. FIGULLA, Business documents of the New-Babylonian period (1949). Publications of the joint expedition of the British Museum and of the University Museum, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, to Mesopotamia.)

YBC = Yale Babylonian Collection.

VAS = Berlin. Konigliche Museen. Vorderasiatische Abteilung. Vorder- asiatische Schriftdenkmiiler (Leipzig, 1907-17).

ZA = Zeitschrift fur Assyriologie und verwandte Gebiete (Leipzig, 1886-).

The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 2
, second edition, 1991, pp. 242-243.

"It has been assumed that, since the last contract dated by Nebuchadrezzar’s forty-third regnal year was written at Uruk (8 October 562) and the first to be dated by his son and successor Amel-Marduk was written that same day , Nebuchadrezzar died early in October. However, two contracts dated to the previous August-September by Amel-Marduk could reflect a period of co-regency, while another dated 15/V/43 (29 August 562) but with an unusual formula, ‘the goddess of Uruk, king of Babylon’, if not a scribal error, might mean that Nebuchadrezzar died somewhat earlier, and that a cautious scribe in a time of disturbance following the king’s death waited to see who his successor would be. Later tradition supposed that Amel-Marduk acted as regent during his father’s illness and that there was confusion at the time of a handover to a successor. Any hiatus was of short duration, for the same contract datings show that Amel-Marduk was acknowledged as king in all the major Babylonian cities by mid-October. ... The latest contract dated to Amel-Marduk in Babylon was written on 7 August 560,and within four days other texts recognized Neriglissar as king there, at Uruk, and elsewhere. ... the latest documents dated by him [Neriglissar] were written on April 12 (556) at Babylon and April 16 at Uruk. If he died later that month, that would accord with the Uruk King List ascription of a reign of three years and eight months.

. .. Neriglissar’s chosen heir was Labashi-Marduk, his son. ..The Uruk King List assigns him a period of three months and this agrees with the dated texts of his reign (earliest 23/1 acession year at Uruk and latest 12/III accession year probably at Sippar ), rather than with the nine (possibly read two) months in Berossus’ manuscript.

... By the end of June 556 scribes throughout Babylonia dated their documents by the new monarch [Nabonidus] ."

Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

Scholar --

There is still another problem with your assertion that "third year of reign" really means "third year of vassalage."

Regarding Daniel 1:1 it can be interpreted to pertain to the latter part of his vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer hence the expression kingship rather than reign as put in the NWT

"In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it." Daniel 1:1

The problem is that the next chapter of Daniel refers to Nebuchadnezzar's second year, and this verse has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jehoiakim and any vassalage. It is speaking strictly of Nebuchadnezzar:

And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him. Daniel 2:1

How does the WT interpret this verse? Do they teach that "second" means "second"? Or if we allow the WT to have a deviation of (+ or -) one year in their chronology because of all that nuisance with the ways of counting accession years, do they at least teach that "second" might mean "first" or "third" ?

No. They teach that when the Bible says

the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar it really means his twentieth regnal year .

Do you think the average Witness is aware of this teaching? 2 = 20? What kind of "rules bending" and what kind of strange contortions do you have to go through to arrive at the idea that Daniel 2:1 is referring to Nebuchadnezzar's 20th year when the Bible text says it was his

2nd year?

You say that "my" chronology is secular and "yours" is Biblical. My chronology says that Daniel 1:1 and Daniel 2:1 are to be taken at face value.

Remember how Clinton parsed his sentences? When does "is" mean "is"?

I look at your organization's tortured re-interpretations of Daniel 1:1 and 2:1, and I wonder:

--- How can 2nd mean 20th, in Daniel 2:1?

--- How can Neuchadnezzar's accession year (Daniel 1:1 together with Jeremiah 25:1) be interpreted to mean Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year?

--- If Daniel 1:1 is Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year, as the WT teaches, then how can the boys have had their 3-year training session end in Nebuchadnezzar's 20th year? Even allowing for "inclusive reckoning" where three years can mean parts of three years, there is no way that you can leap from year 7 to year 20.

What kind of math is that? Your own system has another internal error. This has nothing to do with secular vs. Biblical. Things just don't add up.

Regards,
Marjorie

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Alleymom

The Society quotes from Thiele because he was an oustanding chronologist but this not mean that he was infallible and neither is his chronology.

Scholar --

This "outstanding chronologist" has a seamless chronology. Which part do you disagree with, and how can you accept some parts and not the others? Do you reject everything of this "outstanding" chronologist's chronology before the year 539?

Earlier you said that he "bends the rules" Which rules does he bend, in your opinion?

Thiele is known for his brilliant identication, analysis, and synthesis of the problems of chronology in the Bible lists of the kings of the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Specifically, his work made it possible to resolve the apparent discrepancies in the Bible lists. His research showed that discrepancies of (+ or -) one year can be explained in several ways:

1) Some ancient peoples counted the years of a king's reign as beginning in the year he took the throne

2) Others did not count the "accession year" as year 1, but started the count with the king's first full year in office.

3) Some counted the years as running from Nisan to Nisan (with the new year commencing in the spring)

4) Others counted the years as running from Tishri to Tishri (with the new year starting in the fall)

5) When neighboring peoples refer to each other's kings, the fun really begins <s>. Do they use their own way of counting, or do they use the other group's own count?

6) Did the nations of Israel and Judah always count the same way through the entire history of the monarchies?

7) When the people of Judah were exiled to Babylonia, did they use the Babylonian method of counting kings' reigns, or their own Jewish method? Does this differ depending on whether the writer is in Babylon, as Daniel was, or back in Jerusalem, as Jeremiah was?

So when the Bible says something occurred in "year such-and-such of King so-and-so" you have to know which method is being used.

This is a quick explanation of Thiele's work. How does he "bend the rules" in any of that?

And what about your own explanation that Daniel 1:1 is referring to Jehoiakim's third year of vassalage rather than to his third year of reign, as the Bible text says?

In the third year of the reign

of Jehoiakim
king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar
king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. Daniel 1:1

Most people would certainly think that if anyone is "bending the rules" it is the WT and not Thiele and the other Bible scholars. It seems to me that you are breaking your own rules of accepting the plain and simple meaning of the text unless there is a good reason to interpret it figuratively. There is no philological justification for interpreting Daniel 1:1 to mean "vassalage". There is only one reason: to protect the WT's key date of 1914.

Regards,
Marjorie