Posts by Alleymom

35

14 YEAR OLD JW GIRL NEEDS BLOOD - CAN YOU HELP

by SHUNNED FATHER in

jw
friends

a 14 year old jw girl in vernon, british columbia, canada needs a blood transfusion.

the watchtower society lawyers.

both parents are jw.

14 YEAR OLD JW GIRL NEEDS BLOOD - CAN YOU HELP

by SHUNNED FATHER in

jw
friends

a 14 year old jw girl in vernon, british columbia, canada needs a blood transfusion.

the watchtower society lawyers.

both parents are jw.

Alleymom

Fantastic that you emailed the publisher! I think the Vancouver Sun could use some hints about this going on as well. I will email them tomorrow. I wonder if this 14 yr old is in Vancouver as the ruling was handed down there and not Vernon. ???
The Vancouver Sun is much bigger and seems more willing to enter into controversial issues than the wee littl' Morning Star.

Jez ---

When you email them, perhaps you could include the information about the article and the editorial in the Journal of Medical Ethics.

Marjorie

35

14 YEAR OLD JW GIRL NEEDS BLOOD - CAN YOU HELP

by SHUNNED FATHER in

jw
friends

a 14 year old jw girl in vernon, british columbia, canada needs a blood transfusion.

the watchtower society lawyers.

both parents are jw.

Alleymom

Jez ---

The publishers email address is [email protected]

Here is a copy of an email I just sent to that address:

Mark ---

I read about this case at:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/88533/1.ashx

I hope that the attached information is something you can use. Is there any way you could pass this information along to the Supreme Court Judge involved in the trial? This is an editorial in the Journal of Medical Ethics (J Med Ethics 2000;26:299-301 ):
Title: "Refusal of potentially life-saving blood transfusions by Jehovah's Witnesses: should doctors explain that not all JWs think it's religiously required?" by Raanan Gillon
Imperial College School of Medicine, London University
In this issue of the journal "Lee Elder",1 a pseudonymous dissident Jehovah's Witness (JW), previously an Elder of that faith and still a JW, joins the indefatigable Dr Muramoto2-5 (the latter is not a JW) in arguing that even by their own religious beliefs based on biblical scriptures JWs are not required to refuse potentially life-saving blood transfusions. Just as the "official" JW hierarchy has accepted that biblical scriptures do not forbid the transfusion or injection of blood fractions so too JW theology logically can and should permit the transfusion of whole blood when this is medically required.

Few doctors would argue that they should override the adequately autonomous decisions of Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse blood transfusions even if they are likely to die as a result of such transfusions.

However, there is a case to be made for doctors asking such patients to reflect on their potentially fatal refusal of blood and for drawing to these patients' attention the reasoning of members of their own faith that justifies acceptance of potentially life-saving blood transfusions. [... ] rest of article is attached
Note that the editorial refers to an article in the same issue:

1. Elder L. "Why some Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood and conscientiously reject official Watchtower Society blood policy. "Journal of Medical Ethics 2000;26:375-80.Regards,
Marjorie Alley

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

The last exchange I had with Scholar regarding the accuracy of the 1965 WT article was in VM44's "Babylonian Business Records" thread.

Here's one of the messages from that thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85117/1403036/post.ashx#1403036

Hi, Neil ---
Could you please tell me whether or not you believe the following information from the January 1, 1965 WT is accurate?
*** w65 1/1 p. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived *** Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar's favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.
Thank you!
Marjorie Alley

Scholar replied:
Broadly speaking I exclaim Yes! YES! Why did you appeal to such an older Watchtower for this information? If you are a sincere person why do you not consult the Insight Volumes on information for those Babylonian rulers?

I am a sincere person. And I quoted from the Insight volumes in message #2 of the KISS thread back in 2003.

I did not do so this time because I wanted to know whether you believe the specific information I posted from the January 1, 1965 WT is accurate.

You replied: "Broadly speaking I exclaim Yes! YES!"

I am puzzled by the qualifier you have added. Does "broadly speaking" mean that you agree with most, but not all, of the information?

Is there a statement in that passage with which you disagree? If so, could you please tell me which one? I have numbered the statements for your convenience.

#1 --- Evil-merodach reigned two years
#2 --- and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar
#3 --- who reigned for four years ...
#4 --- [Neriglissar's] underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months.
#5 --- Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar's favorite son-in-law, took the throne
#6 --- and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.
Are all six of these statements true?
Thank you,
Marjorie Alley

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Quotes said: Be warned: as AlanF pointed out in the original thread, WT inconsistently claims there were missing kings and/or years to account for the missing 20 years. However, the WT material presented in the thread leaves no room for this nonsense; they make a strong case for the accuracy of the regnal dates and the succession of kings, and leave no room for adjustment (even by themselves). Then, right at the end of the research, the 18th regnal year of Nebuchadnezzar magically moves to 607 BCE instead of 587 BCE. Any missing kings or dates would have to disagree with WT's own authoritatively stated words in the above quotes. ("A house divided can not stand")

In my first message in the KISS thread, I said:

Note: Perhaps you are thinking, "But does the WTS agree with the list of the kings and the lengths of their reigns?" The surprising answer is YES! I recently bought a Watchtower Library 2001 CD and found quotations from WTS articles and books which show that the WTS itself has agreed with secular historians regarding the names and lengths of reign of the 5 kings listed below.

(There are also articles which try to dance around this, but the fact remains that in their own literature at various times they have agreed with the length of each king's reign. I will provide the quotations in my next post.)

The crucial article is the one from 1965. I have repeated asked Scholar (in other threads) whether or not he accepts the six statements in that passage as completely accurate.

He has refused to give me a direct answer. I'll go look up the most recent exchange we had and add a link.

Marjorie

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Can Alleymom now be elevated to rockstar-like status? Can she be worshipped or just her kick-ass timeline research product? I think it needs addressing...

Robert-----

Positively roaring with laughter! I just HAD to send that comment to my sons and nephews!

Errrr .... I do hasten to add that NO, NO, NO you mustn't worship me!

I wouldn't want to end my career here with an Acts 12:23 ...

"And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

Smiles,

Marjorie

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Agree with all of the above. Have posted it at www.theWatchtower.org as well.

Many thanks, Nicolaou! And thanks for the credit to alleymom! Marjorie

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Ian ---

Thanks for the "btt" which brought the KISS thread back.

Marjorie

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Hi ---

After some initial comments, I'm going to suggest a method of presenting the K.I.S.S. material orally. This is also something which could be turned into a Power Point presentation.

Once again, my suggestions are based on some reading I've done about the cognitive processes involved in mathematics, as well as some experience I've had in tutoring math-challenged adults.

COUNTING:

Counting is a fairly straightforward operation, especially in the range of the smaller numbers. But as you get into larger numbers, people tend to count as if they are counting from 0 to 9 over and over.

For instance, listen to a child counting aloud to 100 while playing hide-and-seek, and you may notice that when he gets to the larger numbers, there's an emphasis on the final digit of the number:

Forty-SIX, forty-SEVEN, forty-EIGHT, forty-NIIIIIIIIIIINE, FIF-ty.

Fifty-ONE, fifty-TWO, fifty-three ... fifty-NIIIIIIINE, SIX-ty.

It's as if he's using an odometer, and counting from 0-9 over and over.

When it comes to counting backwards, people can do a countdown from 10 very quickly. 10... 9... 8... 7... 6... 5... 4... 3... 2... 1 ... BLAST OFF!

But ask them to count backward ten steps from 3,841 and see how long it takes.

COUNTING BACKWARDS IN TIME:

Now, with regard to the material on the WT chronology:

You are going to ask people to count backwards in time through some years in the BCE era.

In my experience, there are some people who would have to stop and think for a minute just to understand the previous sentence!

If I were going to present the K.I.S.S. material to someone who did not have much math background, I would remind them that when you count backwards in time in our modern era, you go from LARGER numbers to SMALLER numbers.

I would demonstrate with a few easy numbers. It's important for them to hear it as well as see it:

2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000.

I'd say it with the emphasis on the last digit:

Two-thousand-FIVE, two-thousand-FOUR, two-thousand-THREE ...

Then I might say:

"But when you count backwards through time in the years Before Christ (the era which is called B.C. or B.C.E.) you count from smaller numbers to LARGER numbers."

1 B.C., 2 B.C., 3 B.C., 4, 5, 6 B.C. ...

I'd put the stress on the number:

ONE B.C., TWO B.C., THREE B.C., 4, 5, 6 BC, etc. ...

"Now we're going to jump to the 500's B.C. (B.C.E.) and we're going to be counting backwards in time from 539 B.C.E., which is a very important date in WT chronology."

[At this point, you might consider saying something along the lines of: "539 B.C. is the year when the neo-Babylonian empire came to an end, when Babylon was captured by the Persians. According to the Bible, this took place on the night of Belshazzar?s feast, when the finger wrote the words on the wall, MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN." If you are dealing with someone who knows this Bible story, it will help him picture that this was the end of the Babylonian empire. Just keep it short. ]

Now demonstrate how to count backwards in time starting with 539 B.C. (B.C.E.):

539 B.C.
540 B.C.
541
542
543 ...

Say:

"Five-thiry-NINE B.C., Five-FORTY B.C., Five-forty-ONE, Five-forty-TWO, Five-forty-THREE ...

Remember, the numbers get bigger. Just as we counted 1 BC, 2 BC, 3, 4, 5, 6 BC, now we are counting 539, 540, 541, 542, etc."

Help them tie that together. It's easy to count 1 BC, 2 BC, etc., but, once again, when you jump to larger numbers, it's not as easy to process.

This should all be done with the tables of numbers in front of the person.

SAY the number and POINT to the number as you move down the list.

[Remember, this may all seem waaaaaay too easy and baby-like to all of you, but we are using the K.I.S.S. approach for people who may have math phobia, people whose eyes may glaze over when they hear the word "chronology".

Chances are, the person may be apprehensive about the presentation itself. They may be afraid that you are going to give them information they do not want to hear, that may conflict with what they believe to be the truth. All of this sets up an obstacle to comprehension, so you want to make it as easy as possible. There are valid reasons for SAYING the number, POINTING to the number, and REPEATING the counting sequence. ]

That about wraps up my thoughts on COUNTING.

In a day or so I hope to write up some thoughts about how I might do an oral presentation of the information on how long each of the neo-Babylonian kings reigned.

3... 2... 1... Good night!

Marjorie

20

Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website

by Quotes in

like many others, i recently rediscovered allymom's 2003 posting: .

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx.

i have just added this information to the wt quotes website: .

Alleymom

Hi, Quotes ---

Ian emailed me and gave me the link to this thread.

I'm delighted that you found the K.I.S.S. approach to be an effective way of presenting the information about the internal inconsistency in the WTBTS's system of chronology.

(And I broke up laughing when I read Robhic's remark about my having achieved rock-star status!)

May I add some comments?

As most of you know, I was never one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I've mentioned before that I have an undergraduate degree (B.A.) in religion.

Actually, I double-majored in religion and math, but I graduated with the B.A. degree in religion while I was still one course shy of the B.S. in math.

The reason I bring up my math background now is that it is because of my experience in math tutoring, particularly in tutoring adults, that I know there are many adults who have an absolute phobia about numbers and mathematics, especially when it comes to word problems.

They just freeze up.

I've read an excellent book, which discusses the research done into which areas of the brain are involved in various types of mathematics.

It's called The Number Sense: How the Mind Creates Mathematics, by Stanislas Dehaene, who is described on the back cover as a "mathematician turned cognitive neuropsychologist."

There are different neuronic pathways involved in counting and in processing verbal ("verbal" in the sense of words, not in the sense of "oral") information about numbers.

This is an over-simplification, but it explains, in part, why counting is easier than solving word problems.

I believe very strongly that if you are going to try to explain the internal inconsistency in the Watchtower Society's system of chronology to an average adult --- especially to someone who has never had any advanced math --- you have to strive to remove every possible obstacle to comprehension. There are pedagogical methods, which can be used to help overcome the psychological and cognitive obstacles to comprehension.

Above all, you have to avoid making the presentation sound like a word problem!

If it sounds like a word problem, many adults will just freeze up or quit.

You have to emphasize that this is just simple counting, counting backwards, which anyone can do.

I think it's GREAT that you've put the information on your site. But I hope you won't mind if I say that I have some concern about how you've presented it. From my experience in working with math-challenged adults, I believe you've unwittingly created potential impediments to comprehension.

Surprisingly, it turns out to be the case that seemingly small changes in how a math problem is presented can have huge ramifications for how easily the problem is understood.

You want to "K.I.S.S." --- keep it simple, sweetie --- and just have the person view this as an exercise in COUNTING.

By interrupting the "countdown" and interspersing it with the paragraphs giving the information about each king, you've suddenly turned the whole thing into a giant word problem.

I am afraid some people are going to take one look as they scroll through the material, and react with "AAAACK, it looks like a word problem, it's too hard, I can't understand this chronology stuff."

I think you'd find that a few very minor changes would really help to make the material on your site easier to understand.

#1 Work on the wording of your first paragraph sentence:

Working backwards in time through the Babylonian kings, from the fall of Babylon to the Persians (539 BCE) back to the fall of Jerusalem to Babylonians

I suspect that you're going to have a lot of people reading the site who are mixed up about Babylon, the Persians, Jerusalem, etc.

When they see the words "Working backwards in time ... FROM ... TO" they're going to misunderstand you.

They're going to think this is about working backwards in time FROM the fall of Babylon TO the Persians. And then BACK to the fall of Jerusalem and then ... who knows, they're really mixed up now ... maybe back again TO the Babylonians.

That doesn't make ANY sense historically, of course, but THEY won't know that.

I think it's essential to word that first sentence so clearly that it cannot be misunderstood.

#2 This is the important one! Find a way to present the "quotes" material without interrupting the countdown. Once you stop the countdown, it's hard to pick it up again, ESPECIALLY because the stopping points resume with the next king's year 0, the accession year. This alone is enough to lose most people! "Hunh? Year 0? Accession year?"

Plus, people who are suspicious of the whole thing are going to wonder if you're fudging the numbers somehow when you interrupt with the paragraphs of Watch Tower literature. They may think it's all blah, blah, blah.

When I wrote the first message in the K.I.S.S. thread I had no idea this was going to become something so many people would read. So I didn't devote as much time to formatting the list of numbers as I could have. I remember trying to fix up that first message and I got the highlighting stuck!

You, on the other hand, have really put some time into the formatting. I especially like how you've made the tables --- they look great!

But you really might want to consider moving those wordy WT paragraphs which interrupt the countdown. I'm not sure exactly what to suggest. Perhaps a third column in the tables, with a SHORT explanation would be the answer, followed by the WT quotes at the end?

Kind regards,
Marjorie Alley (aka "alleymom")