Posts by Alleymom

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

I'm really enjoying this discussion.
Very interseting that Martyr likened Moses' outstreached hand to Jesus on the cross.

Yes. And Justin Martyr was writing in the second century.

Marjorie

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

If they admitted what Irenaeus had to say, they'd have to admit what earlier writers like Justin Martyr or even (God forbid) classical Greek and Roman writers like Seneca, Plautus, or Lucian had to say.
Then they'd have to drop the whole idea that crux and stauros did not mean cross. I think they'd just prefer not to let ppl know the facts of the matter.

Leolaia --

Not too long before the JW showed up on the board, I had been discussing the passage from Justin Martyr, where he says that when Aaron and Hur held up Moses' hands during the battle against the Amalekites, Moses formed the figure of a cross. So I was able to give him a link to messages where I talked about the passage:

Exodus 17:12 KJV

But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

Here's the relevant section from Chapter 90 of Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho. link to chapter 90 .

"When the people," replied I, "waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave (Nun) by name Jesus (Joshua), led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross , the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionally defeated, and he who prevailed prevailed by the cross. For it was not because Moses so prayed that the people were stronger, but because, while one who bore the name of Jesus (Joshua) was in the forefront of the battle, he himself made the sign of the cross.

Marjorie

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

im dieing to know how your friend reacted to all that information alley. I would have burned all of my watchtowers in my believing days.

Daunt --- It wasn't a personal friend, it was someone who started posting on the religion forum where I am a member. He totally lost his cool and posted some crude messages accusing me of throwing myself at another member, who is gay. He left shortly thereafter, but a lot of people were reading the thread and learned something. The most interesting reaction I got was from another JW, who has apparently been lurking on the board, but who had never posted anything previously. He was appalled at the other JW's behavior and felt compelled to issue an apology to me on behalf of the Witnesses. He said he wasn't ready to join the discussion, but I assume he has continued to read the board. I've had strong reactions in the past when I showed photos of the memorial pyramid at Russell's grave site to Witnesses at the door. One man even took the photos and interrupted his partner, who was talking to my husband about world conditions, and said, "Look at this!" (I'd love to know what they said to each other when they got back to the car!) Marjorie

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

In the Revelation Climax book of 1988, they quoted Tacitus about Christian persecution but felt compelled to replace his references to "crosses" with "[stakes]", suggesting that the word cruces did not refer to two-beamed crosses at the time Tacitus wrote (untrue).

I don't suppose they ever quoted from Irenaeus?

" The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails. "
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (Adversus Haereses), Book II, Chapter XXIV.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

CLICK HERE

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

Wow, I'm surprised by that illustration. In the Revelation Climax book of 1988, they quoted Tacitus about Christian persecution but felt compelled to replace his references to "crosses" with "[stakes]", suggesting that the word cruces did not refer to two-beamed crosses at the time Tacitus wrote (untrue). But here they depict the different kinds of crosses that were indeed in vogue then.

It is surprising to see an illustration like that in such a recent (1993) piece of WT literature. I suppose a new edition will be out soon. BTW, I have not verified this. Does someone have a copy of this booklet? Marjorie

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

1921 The Harp of God - Judge Rutherford

Copied from:

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Jw_Cross.htm

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

1993 "How Can Blood Save Your Life?" -- page 7

Copied from:

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Jw_Cross.htm

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r5221.htm

CLICK HERE

Zion's Watchtower, Vol. XXXIV, No. 8, April 15, 1913.

From the article, "

CROSS-BEARING A PRIVILEGE"

"When we think of the cross, too, we believe that it was of no light weight. We know of no light woods in the vicinity of Jerusalem. The most common tree there is the olive, which is an extremely heavy wood and of remarkable density. If we should suppose the cross to have been three feet in the ground and of reasonable height, it must have been at least twelve to fourteen feet long, and the cross-beam must have been at least five feet . Allowing a reasonable thickness for strength and for keeping it from bending under its load, we would think that the cross must have weighed from one hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds. This gives us the thought that it was no light weight."

CLICK HERE

Zion's Watch Tower, Vol. XXVII, No. 23, December 1, 1906.

From the article, "IN THE

CROSS OF CHRIST I GLORY. "

"Arrived at Calvary, Golgotha, the wooden crosses were laid upon the ground, the victims stretched thereon, and nailed by hands and feet; then the soldiers lifted the crosses and set them into already prepared holes or sockets. The torture of these experiences can better be imagined than described."

http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r6000.htm

CLICK HERE

R6000 : page 359]

THE FUNERAL SERVICES

The remains of Pastor Russell--announcement of whose death was published in the last issue of THE WATCH TOWER--arrived in New York from the West on Friday morning, November 3, accompanied by his traveling secretary, Menta Sturgeon.

THE FLORAL DISPLAY

Elsewhere in THE WATCH TOWER will be found a full-page view of the floral display on the rostrum. It was the finest we have ever seen on such an occasion. The scene surpassed description. The rostrum of The Temple was so completely occupied by plants, ferns, flowers and a most wonderful collection of appropriate floral designs as to leave barely room enough for the speakers and the remains of our beloved Pastor. Moreover, the entire facing of every balcony and box was artistically decorated with a great variety of ferns and flowers.

At the foot of the casket was placed a broken pillar of flowers, fittingly representing that dear body which, like the Lord's body, had been broken in the service of the brethren; while at the head was a magnificent floral cross and crown, the cross symbolizing his share in the death of Christ, and the crown symbolizing the Crown of Glory, which we believe he now wears with our dear Lord in Heaven.

40

Lack of evidence in "Insight" gack book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal in

after a short discussion regarding the cross vs. stake theory with my grandmother i decided to refresh my memory of the wts doctrine regarding this and it's supporting arguments.

i was surprised to find that they only used one supporting reference to their claim.

it's a quote by john denham parsons written in 1896 (interesting that it took over 30 years for god to mention this to his mouthpiece).

Alleymom

For a good photo of the cross-and-crown emblem which appeared on the old magazines, see the closeup view of this 1917 Watch Tower which was recently for sale on eBay:

Ebay item # 4543305589 (auction completed).

Aren't the cross-shaped windows in the tower a nice touch?

I was discussing this not too long ago with a JW on another forum, who just couldn't believe that the organization used to teach that Jesus died on a cross. I posted photos of the memorial pyramid near Russell's grave with a close-up of the cross-and-crown emblem and the words Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

He claimed the photos were fake and that Russell wasn't buried there. I gave him the name and phone number of the cemetery, along with a quote from Russell's will giving his instructions that he was to be buried at Rosemont United Cemetery. I also dug up a description of his funeral, which made mention of the huge floral display in the shape of a cross.

I've got a link saved (somewhere) to a website which has scans old WT literature with pictures of Jesus on the cross.

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

Alleymom, there is no use to argue with scholar because he is an Apostate and does not want the truth. He even disagrees with his own organization because on page 253 of their Vol.1 Isaiah's Prophecy it plainly shows the 70 years is how long Babylon had World Power. In paragraph 21 last sentence says:"Different Nations come under that dominationat different times.But at the end of 70 years that domination will crumble." The organization is run by Apostates and he is no better.They just made a mistake and told the truth for once.

Alwayshere --- Interesting quote! I've seen it posted here before, but I don't believe I've seen a response. Thanks, Marjorie