Posts by Alleymom

47

Ozzie is in hospital again.

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

i received an sms last night from ozzie himself saying on saturday he collapsed and had to be taken by ambulance to hospital.. he is being operated on again this morning (wednesday 29/6/05 australia time).

as usual with the particular operation he is having there are serious risks.

i ask his friends to send anything positive his way today.

Alleymom

Praying for your recovery!

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

Evilforce --

Leolaia's article on stauros/stake/crucifixion is here:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92381/1559200/post.ashx#1559200

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

I can. He is imagining that by backtracking and tangling the issue on the basis of psuedo-scriptual 'truth', that he will appear to know what he is actually presenting in argument. It is a tactic that is commonly used on the platforms of Kingdom Halls throughout the world each week. The religion and doctrines of the WTS is one that is based on appearance. They appear to be sound until measured under scrutiny. It is a tactic that does work with the largely uneducated and generally uninterested Jehovah's Witnesses, but not here among those who have studied the matter outside of a WT shaped agenda. It may surprise you to note Marjorie that the grass roots JW's are quite ignorant of their own doctrines, so among such people Scholar shaped logic shines like the polished arse of a Golden Calf. I have also noted that his posts have once again reverted to a scrappy and more careless tone. I suspect that his mentor is out of town.

Hillary -- For those who are not particularly well educated, the literature does give the appearance of being both scholarly and sound. All those footnotes! From such arcane sources!

Actually, I do realize that the average Witness is apt to be ignorant of many details of the Society's doctrines, chronology, and history. I've come across this many times in the last fifteen years, not only with the Witnesses at my door, but with Witnesses online. They'll talk about the Trinity for hours, but they have no knowledge of 1874, 607, etc.

It's been amazing to see the reaction when I've shown photos of Russell's memorial pyramid to Witnesses at the door! One fellow actually interrupted his partner (who was giving my husband the spiel about world conditions) in order to show him the photos of the pyramid. He took the stack of pictures from me and showed them to his partner, one by one, exclaiming, "Look at this!" (I bet he and his partner had a little chat when they went back to the car.)

Earlier this spring a JW on my other board (Compuserve's Religion Forum) had NO idea that the Society had ever taught that Jesus died on a cross. I posted large photos of the memorial pyramid at Russell's grave site, with the cross-and-crown emblem and the words "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society" emblazoned on the sides, but he thought the pictures were fakes.

I gave him the phone number of the cemetery office and suggested he call them. I gave him references and quotes from the old WT's describing the grave and the memorial pyramid with the cross-and-crown. I posted the WT's description of Russell's funeral -- with the floral cross.

I posted a picture of an old WT cover with the cross-and-crown. I quoted from old WT's which described the cross.

Nothing got through. Mike got so mad at me that he posted some extremely vulgar messages and then left the board.

But the interesting thing is that Mike's messages to me upset another JW who has apparently been lurking for awhile but who had never posted before. He felt obliged to jump in and make a public post, telling me that not all Witnesses are like that, and apologizing for his brother's behavior. He seemed like a good guy. I don't know if he's still lurking, but I recently sent him a link to Leolaia's stauros thread. Maybe we'll see him here someday.

Sorry for the digression ... back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Regards,

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

If the poztates do not oblige me with this request then I will need to obtain the original and have it translated at the Department of German at the University of Sydney.

Neil ---

Why didn't you put in your own interlibrary loan request for the article as soon as you received the letter from Dr. Jenni? He suggested you read it. It's puzzling that you would wait so long.

And since you distrust the "poztates" why would you want to rely on their scans of the article? How could you know they hadn't doctored it?

Incidentally, you may have missed a message I posted to you a few minutes ago. You posted three in a row around the same time I was working on mine. If you scroll back a little, you'll see it.

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

Evilforce --

You asked Scholar why he can't get one of his professors to translate the "letter."

Just to clarify, Dr. Jenni's letter to Leolaia and Scholar was written in English. In the recent messages, Neil has been referring to an article by Dr. Jenni which was published in the journal Zeitschrift fur Althebraistik.

Ernst Jenni. "Jer 3, 17, ‘nach Jerusalem’: ein Aramaismus." Zeitschrift fur Althebraistik 1/1 1988

Scholar ---

The article is copyrighted, so I am not going to be the one to post it here. You should be able to obtain it through your university as an interlibrary loan, as I did. My husband read the article and went over it with me. Narkissos gave an accurate summary. (Which goes without saying --- Narkissos's scholarship, knowledge, and honesty are apparent, and for you to imply otherwise is shabby indeed.)

Your constant accusations of scholarly dishonesty are becoming tiresome. Frankly, I am appalled at the slanderous statements you have made about Dr. Jenni. Presumably you agree with your organization's policy that pedophiles are not thrown out unless there are two witnesses, but, on the other hand, it's ok for you to accuse a respected scholar of academic dishonesty, not on any solid grounds (you don't read German or Hebrew and you have not read his work) but on the basis of some "feeling" or "suspicion" you have.

If you still have a question which was not answered in his letter to you, why haven't you written to him again, as I have suggested? The man is old, and he is one of the world's foremost Hebrew scholars, and yet he took the time to respond to you. And how do you respond to his kindness? By complaining and accusing him of dishonesty.

Incidentally, I am disappointed that you did not bother to tell all of us that you had received a reply from Dr. Jenni. I went to the trouble of looking up his email address for you so that you could write to him with your concerns. I would have appreciated hearing back from you when you received a response from Jenni.

Why did you sit on the letter for so long?

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

Scholar said: I would have thought that for the benefit of all that you would have posted Jenni's original article ofn Jeremiah 3: 17 before running off and forming theories concerning what Jenni may or may not have said about the matter.

Leolaia replied: LOL, what theories?! Jenni told you himself what he thought about the matter, which only backs up what he said to Jonsson and what he said in his Lamed volume.

Leolaia ---

Exactly! Dr. Jenni is the one who gave you and Neil the references. Of course those references support his position! How could anyone think otherwise?

Why on earth would the man tell you, "This is my position" and then refer you to other things he had written which would CONTRADICT his stated position?

The very idea is ludicrous. I can't imagine what Neil is thinking.

Here is Jenni's letter again:

My position concerning Jer 29:10 is to be found in my Lamed-book p. 106-109 (l:Bâbel, Lamed experientiae) and p. 279 (l:fî m:lôt, with translation "erst wenn 70 Jahre für Babel um sind", in agreement with the large majority of the commentaries and lexica). (I strongly recommend to you to learn German or to consult somebody who understands the language.)

More important and decisive for your discussion seems to be the question, wether lamed can have a free local meaning. My explanations are given in Lamed p.256-260 and already in an article "Jer 3,17 "nach Jerusalem": ein Aramaismus, in: Zeitschrift für Althebraistik 1, 1988, 107-111. As I cannot give you a complete translation, I concentrate on the crucial issue for your discussion: Lamed has in classical Hebrew some 360 occurrences of general orientations radiating from the subject ("nach oben" / "nach unten" etc., but not connected with free localities like towns or countries), and all of them in directional sense ("wohin?", to where?) and never purely static-local ("wo?", where?). l:Bâbel could at the most (and only in late books of the Old Testament) directionally mean "to Babel, into Babel", but not locally "at Babel, in Babel", as the Vulgata and the King James Version (wrongly) understood (influenced by other traditions about Israel in the exile). Kind regards
E. Jenni

Note to those who have not read the whole thread:

Dr. Ernst Jenni is a Hebrew scholar who is widely regarded as the world's foremost authority on the use of the preposition in Biblical Hebrew.

His position is that Jer. 29:10 should be translated "seventy years FOR Babylon". He says the King James Version, which has "at Babylon" is wrong.

Leolaia and Scholar both wrote letters to Dr. Jenni, and he wrote back to them, affirming his position and referring them to specific pages in scholarly material he has published.

Marjorie

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

Alleymom

Scholar said: I would have thought that for the benefit of all that you would have posted Jenni's original article ofn Jeremiah 3: 17 before running off and forming theories concerning what Jenni may or may not have said about the matter. For starters, Jenni's researchis not readily available and would need to be transalted into English. It is those wiley poztates who promote Jenni not WT scholars so if you are going to promote him then do so completely and not partially.

Neil--

Since Narkissos reads German, I sent him a copy of Jenni's article on Jeremiah 3:17 on May 21. He promptly read it and provided a summary for all of us on page 13 of this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/87714/1531452/post.ashx#1531452

Didn't you see it?

Marjorie

175

The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia in

finally, i will look at biblical and patristic evidence bearing on the crucifixion of jesus in particular.

we need to examine the earliest known descriptions of the kind of crucifixion adopted by the romans and the specific terms they used to refer to it.

apparently the society believes that crux still meant "stake" in the second century a.d., when tacitus composed his annals.

Alleymom

Leolaia --

I recently noticed something very interesting about the society's online version of the blood brochure, "How Can Blood Save Your Life?".

Earlier in this thread, you asked me to post the picture from page 7 of the brochure. The credits say it is a painting by Gérôme, 1883, courtesy of Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore. (This is the painting of early Christian martyrs being crucified on two-beamed crosses, not stakes, in the arena.)

Kwin previously scanned the whole page:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/file/6290104D-7BAE-497B-97FB-9B351C748338.ashx

Anyway, I was looking at the article as it appears on the official WTS website:

http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/article_01.htm

http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/index.htm?article=article_02.htm

I noticed that the picture of the painting by Gérôme is not there. I went back and compared the list of credits in the article from my 2001 Watchtower Library CD, and it seems that none of the other pictures is missing.

For instance, if you look at Kwin's scan of page 7, you'll see that below the picture of the Christian martyrs, further down on the same page, there is a picture of a unit of blood hanging on a hospital IV. The online brochure has the picture of the unit of blood hanging from the IV, but they omitted the painting of the Christian martyrs.

I am guessing that they decided the picture of the Christian martyrs hanging on crosses was too embarrassing to leave in. I note that they say the brochure was published in 1990, but they don't mention that the online version has been altered.

Regards,

Marjorie

175

The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia in

finally, i will look at biblical and patristic evidence bearing on the crucifixion of jesus in particular.

we need to examine the earliest known descriptions of the kind of crucifixion adopted by the romans and the specific terms they used to refer to it.

apparently the society believes that crux still meant "stake" in the second century a.d., when tacitus composed his annals.

Alleymom

Leolaia --

Thanks for the information on Welch --- somehow I missed seeing that message earlier.

And thanks for pulling up the LXX verses with xulon. Given the usage of xulon in Revelation, Luke, and the LXX to refer to a living tree, it seems clear that statement #2 of Appendix 162 in the Companion Bible is incorrect, regardless of whether Bullinger or Welch was the author.

Marjorie

175

The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia in

finally, i will look at biblical and patristic evidence bearing on the crucifixion of jesus in particular.

we need to examine the earliest known descriptions of the kind of crucifixion adopted by the romans and the specific terms they used to refer to it.

apparently the society believes that crux still meant "stake" in the second century a.d., when tacitus composed his annals.

Alleymom

Leolaia ---
Here's something else to note about Appendix 162 to the Companion Bible. There's a mistake right near the top, in item #2.
It says:

In the Greek New Testament two words are used for "the cross" on which the Lord was put to death.
1. The word stauros; which denotes an upright pole or stake, to which the criminals were nailed for execution.
2. The xulon, which generally denotes a piece of a dead log of wood, or timber, for fuel or for any other purpose. It is not like dendron, which is used of a living, or green tree, as in Matthew 21:8; Revelation 7:1, 3; 8:7; 9:4, etc.

Stat ement #2 says that xulon is not like dendron, which is used of a living or green tree.

But look at the following verses, all of which have xulon rather than dendron.

--- Rev. 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

--- Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

---- Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

---- Luke 22:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

I have trouble believing that Bullinger made such an elementary mistake as that. I have a vague recollection --- and I could be wrong on this --- that he died before the whole project was finished, and it was finished by others.

Leo, do you think you could find out anything else about that? I did a little googling and I couldn't find anything. It's just an impression I have.

Marjorie [having a lot of trouble formatting this message]