AChristian,
Responding to post 365. EXCELLENT questions!
I dont think JameC knows about your post or you can bet he would be in here. If you want to engage him, I would send JimW a PM and he could alert him.
Tor
toreador
JoinedPosts by toreador
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72
Apostolic Succession ?
by a Christian injames c,.
you wrote: the belief of apostolic succession is not a distinctly roman one.
the orthodox as well as the anglicans hold to it.
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83
A kind response to Jim Penton & Ros of Channel C
by Amazing inthe following are transports of postings on http://www.channelc.org/ made by jim penton and ros regarding myself and james caputo respectively.
the reason that i did not post directly on channel c is that ros and many of her board participants do not like to see anything that resembles catholic discussion, even if the responses are done respectfully and in a spirit of clarifying a false claim or misunderstanding.
i too do not like "catholic" discussions on channel c, and have not posted there for 9 months until i recently posted an announcement about tom cabeen's interviews on ewtn and with randy watters.
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toreador
fjtoth,
Your cartoons were spot on. I think Caputo did far more proselytizing than JimW ever did though in all fairness. From what I remember of the times when i would drop in, it was Caputo who could not and would not listen to repeated requests. He did the same thing on CC to many of the participants that he did here, i.e. he would double and triple respond to each and every post as if posting mere volumes of information would weigh someone over to the his way of thinking. He was asked to take it elsewhere repeatedly by several members of the board including the board owner. He admits to repeatedly making fun of the administrator; what did he expect would happen. If one repeatedly made fun of Simon, the owner of this board, what do you suppose would happen. It doesnt surprise me that he would whine and complain about it here as he loves whatever audience he can get. How much do you want to bet he will post several more paragraphs. One would only have to check the archives, if they are still up on CC to show that his claims are false for anyone who is really THAT interested. I don't think its worth the time and effort IMHO. Time to let it drop by the wayside.
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83
A kind response to Jim Penton & Ros of Channel C
by Amazing inthe following are transports of postings on http://www.channelc.org/ made by jim penton and ros regarding myself and james caputo respectively.
the reason that i did not post directly on channel c is that ros and many of her board participants do not like to see anything that resembles catholic discussion, even if the responses are done respectfully and in a spirit of clarifying a false claim or misunderstanding.
i too do not like "catholic" discussions on channel c, and have not posted there for 9 months until i recently posted an announcement about tom cabeen's interviews on ewtn and with randy watters.
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toreador
Hello Vinoverita (James Caputo)
Its really nice to see you joined the forum! ChannelC seems to be an exclusive forum for a group of people with similar mindsets and was never intended, from what I gather from the array of regular forum participants, to be open to everyone who pops in off the street such as JWD is. Hell, JWD even let me apply and receive membership.
I seem to remember when the board was almost shut down and in all fairness to the ChannelC forum administrator, you (there were others, but you seemed to be the ringleader and seemed to have 24 hrs a day to devote to promoting Catholicism), literally took the board over, posting veritable reams of material in each post, quoting extensively from the church fathers and Catholic literature, and this with multiple posts a day, everyday.
So much so, that nothing else was even discussed. From what I remember, you were given ample time to make your point and kindly asked to refrain from insisting everyone acqueisce to your way of thinking. In other words, you insisted on it being your way or the highway. You were asked several times to tone down the diatribes and you simply put up a blind eye to the repeated requests, even poking fun at the admins attempts to quell the runaway Catholicism freight train. You seemed to be like a JW elder on a roll in a judicial committee meeting, so cocksure of himself that the party under interrogation was guilty, and that by God you were going to beat it out of them till they folded. At least that was my impression from reading "some'"of your material. (Noone could have possibly read it all) ;-)
Of course that was some time ago and I have slept since then. I bet you never took no for an answer at the door back in your JW field service days either.
Tor
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239
I Do Not Understand Why JWs Leave & Become Catholics!
by minimus inout of all religions, catholicism, to me, is wrong and clearly could never be the truth.
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toreador
Nice job ranaii. I think what you are forgetting Tom C, or trying to overlook is that the catholic church HAS changed its views on a number of things, such as hell, just as the JW's have as Ranaii has pointed out very well.
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56
...and the JWD beat goes on...
by hillary_step inburn the ships: osama bin laden has long blonde hair and a tattoo of jesus on the left orb of his arse.. hs : no he has not...got long blonde hair i mean.. burn the ships: you admire osama so why should we believe you?
in fact as you admire osama why should we believe that god does not exist or that the republican party is not a gigantic cuban string vest?.
hs: where have i said i admired osama burn?.
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toreador
LOL, maybe it was!
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Einstein on God....Rare Letter At Auction
by hillary_step inthis rare letter gives us a good insight into the 'religious' views of einstein, oft quoted by mainstream religionists in the hope that they could glean from him some allusion to his belief in a conventional 'god'.. why his views on god or even the rear end of marilyn monroe would be of much interest has always eluded me, but it is just as well that we all know that einstein did not believe in any god, at least not in the conventional sense, so that defenders of the bible and a god free of sociopathy are not tempted to haul his einsteined majesty before the court of debate again.. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/20080513/einstein_letter_080513/20080513?hub=scitech.
hs.
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toreador
*Marking the spot.*
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56
...and the JWD beat goes on...
by hillary_step inburn the ships: osama bin laden has long blonde hair and a tattoo of jesus on the left orb of his arse.. hs : no he has not...got long blonde hair i mean.. burn the ships: you admire osama so why should we believe you?
in fact as you admire osama why should we believe that god does not exist or that the republican party is not a gigantic cuban string vest?.
hs: where have i said i admired osama burn?.
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toreador
Thats friggin hilarious HS!
Tor
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239
I Do Not Understand Why JWs Leave & Become Catholics!
by minimus inout of all religions, catholicism, to me, is wrong and clearly could never be the truth.
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toreador
Hello Jim,
Thank you for clarifying. Do you know where the quote came from? Was in in the canon law at one time and then changed by a Pope at a later time?
Were the following statements actually recorded accurately?
"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land . . . He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords"
La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871."All the faithful must believe that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff [the Pope] possesses the primacy over the whole world, and the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and is true vicar of Christ, and heed of the whole church, and father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter to rule, feed, and govern the universal Church by Jesus Christ our Lord."
First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, "Eternal Pastor," published in the fourth session of the Vatican Council, 1870, chap. 3, in Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. vol. 2, p. 262.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, “orbi,” (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the [Roman Catholic] Canonists put it—“The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.”
Ignaz von Dollinger, “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich” 1871; as quoted in MacDougall,
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth."
(Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).
"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate."
(Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, page 653).
"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."
(Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318). -
239
I Do Not Understand Why JWs Leave & Become Catholics!
by minimus inout of all religions, catholicism, to me, is wrong and clearly could never be the truth.
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toreador
http://antichristpope.blogspot.com/2006/05/pope-claims-to-be-god-on-earth.html
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".
"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power."
Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.
These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."
Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."
Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.
Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.
"The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man .... he is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', pp.25-29
"The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires... complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself."
Leo VIII, «On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens», Encyclical letter, 1890
"God separates those whom the Roman Pontiff, who exercises the functions, not of mere man, but of the true God...dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority."
Decretals of Gregory IX», Book 1, Chapter 7.3
"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum)."
Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)
"Innocent III has written: "Indeed, it is not top much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."
The dignity of the priesthood by Liguori p, 36
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National July 1895
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894
"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth."
Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109
Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205
"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land... He is the vicegerent (replacement) of Christ, who is not only a Priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords."
La Civilia Cattolica, March 18, 1871, quoted in Leonard Woosely Bacaon, An inside view of the Vatican Council (American Tract Society ed.), p.229
"Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power."
Corpus Juris chap. 1 column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff
"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land . . . He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords"
La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871.
"All the faithful must believe that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff [the Pope] possesses the primacy over the whole world, and the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and is true vicar of Christ, and heed of the whole church, and father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter to rule, feed, and govern the universal Church by Jesus Christ our Lord."
First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, "Eternal Pastor," published in the fourth session of the Vatican Council, 1870, chap. 3, in Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. vol. 2, p. 262.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, “orbi,” (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the [Roman Catholic] Canonists put it—“The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.”
Ignaz von Dollinger, “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich” 1871; as quoted in MacDougall,
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth."
(Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).
"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate."
(Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, page 653).
"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."
(Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318).
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world."
A Decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, "The Most Holy Councils," col. 1167. -
2
Bossert possibly not sold after all.
by toreador inhttp://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/19/31_19_bossert_sold.html.
bossert sold?by gersh kuntzmanthe brooklyn paperthe hotel bossert, the swanky montague street accommodation that was the site of the dodgers knock-down, drag-out world series victory party in 1955 and, more recently, a jehovahs witnesses dormitory, has apparently been sold.. then again, no ones talking.. brownstoner.com, a real-estate web site, reported that developer robert a. levine had bought the 224-unit hotel from the watchtower bible and tract society for upwards of $100 million.. but both entities denied the report.. its not true, witness spokesman richard devine told the brooklyn paper.
the hotel has not yet been sold.. repeated calls to levines ral companies and affiliates were not returned.. if levine has indeed bought the bossert, it would mark the second high-profile deal between his company and the witnesses.
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toreador
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/19/31_19_bossert_sold.html
Bossert sold?
By Gersh Kuntzman The Brooklyn Paper
The Hotel Bossert, the swanky Montague Street accommodation that was the site of the Dodgers’ knock-down, drag-out World Series victory party in 1955 and, more recently, a Jehovah’s Witnesses dormitory, has apparently been sold.
Then again, no one’s talking.
Brownstoner.com, a real-estate Web site, reported that developer Robert A. Levine had bought the 224-unit hotel from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for “upwards of $100 million.”
But both entities denied the report.
“It’s not true,” Witness spokesman Richard Devine told The Brooklyn Paper. “The hotel has not yet been sold.”
Repeated calls to Levine’s RAL Companies and Affiliates were not returned.
If Levine has indeed bought the Bossert, it would mark the second high-profile deal between his company and the Witnesses. In 2004, Levine bought the Watchtower’s former printing plant at 360 Furman St. for a reported $200 million. The building is now being converted into the all-luxury One Brooklyn Bridge Park.
The sale of the Bossert— and the attendant buzz that it has created — couldn’t have come at a better time. After all, the 14-story Italian Renaissance Revival building at the corner of Montague and Hicks streets is the headline attraction on Saturday’s Brooklyn Heights house tour.
The public will get a rare look inside the Bossert’s ornate lobby, which was restored to its glory by the Witnesses. (See GO Brooklyn’s house tour roundup on page 12.)
The building is also known for the former Marine Roof restaurant on the top floor — a room with views of Manhattan that will not be on the house tour, but will figure prominently in any buyer’s plans for the building.
The Bossert is just one of a half-dozen Witness buildings for sale in Downtown Brooklyn, DUMBO and Brooklyn Heights, where the century-old faith is based. The selloff comes as the Witnesses have moved most of their publishing and printing operations upstate.
Last year, the Standish Arms Hotel on Columbia Heights sold for $50 million. At the time, real-estate experts said the Bossert would go for twice that amount.
They were right. Apparently, that is.