Posts by maksutov

24

JWs through the eyes of an eight year old

by maksutov in

my wife is a jw, and is teaching our eight year old daughter jw beliefs.

i am trying to teach her about evolution and critical thinking skills.

here is a conversation we had today (as best i can remember it):daughter: "why do bad things happen?

maksutov

Thanks very much for all the comments and encouragement (ew, did I just use that word?) - I appreciate it!

My daughter tends to get really defensive whenever we talk about this stuff - like she's spoiling for a fight, and wants to convince me to believe. I really struggle to let her have her say - my instinct is just to shut her down and say that I've heard it all before, but I'm making an effort now to acknowledge what her mum has been teaching her as a possibility, but one that has no evidence to back it up.

ABibleStudent: How about teaching your daughter how to do her own research? If she asks about evolution, show her how to do research using the internet. Help her to evaluate information sources and analyze information.

Good reminder, thanks. We usually have these sorts of chat after dinner when her mum is on the computer, so it is the one time that it's difficult to look things up, but you are right, she needs to learn how to evaluate sources and do her own research.

rathernotsay: its only my 4yo thats asking questions. I have found all I can really do at this point is get him interested in dinosaurs and space, hoping that he asks the right questions later.

Yes, it is very hard to have meaningful discussions at that age! I have always tried to foster an interest in science in my daughter, but she's not all that interested. When she was younger I used magic tricks to help her develop critical thinking skills - she learned very quickly that there is always a secret trick involved, and that it's not real magic. She has her own magic sets which she still plays with occasionally. We used to watch magic shows on TV too, and tried to guess how the tricks were done.

sonoftheTrinity: Put the "Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies" poster up in somewhere in the house and tell her for every logical fallacy she finds in the Awake magazine you'll pay her a quarter (or a dollar if you got it like that.) That way she will pay attention which will initially please your wife until she finds out what is going on.

Funny you should say that, as I have been teaching her about logical fallacies too, and I mentioned that poster to her! I told her that if she learned a few fallacies I would print the poster for her. I try to find examples of each fallacy that don't involve God or religion - as I want her to spot JW fallacies for herself (it can be quite hard to come up with examples that are simple enough for her to understand though). So far we've covered false dichotomies, post-hoc fallacies, ad hominem, and arguments from personal incredulity. A few weeks ago I inadvertently used a false dichotomy, and she picked me up on it!

@OrphanCrow: Stop it man, you're making me blush! I think I just get a little annoyed that the teacher lets her own religious beliefs interfere with her teaching. The 'Witches and Wizards' topic was selected by the school for her year group, and was meant to include a bit of Harry Potter among other things, but the teacher got it changed (she spoke to my wife about it, as she knew my wife would not like it either). They did do the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe though, which my wife refuses to read with her. And yes, I need to introduce survival of the fittest, that isn't something we've covered yet.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions!

24

JWs through the eyes of an eight year old

by maksutov in

my wife is a jw, and is teaching our eight year old daughter jw beliefs.

i am trying to teach her about evolution and critical thinking skills.

here is a conversation we had today (as best i can remember it):daughter: "why do bad things happen?

maksutov

Thanks everyone!

24

JWs through the eyes of an eight year old

by maksutov in

my wife is a jw, and is teaching our eight year old daughter jw beliefs.

i am trying to teach her about evolution and critical thinking skills.

here is a conversation we had today (as best i can remember it):daughter: "why do bad things happen?

maksutov

cappytan: This video may be above her head, but if she's as bright as she sounds, she may get something out of it

That's a great video, thanks, I will bookmark it. She won't understand all of it yet, but every little helps.

cofty: Maksutov - I think that was brilliant. Teach her how to think.

Thanks - it was the best I could come up with at the time, but I'm always on the lookout for new ideas and ways of teaching critical thinking skills.

LoisLane: You are doing a wonderful job trying to gently get her to think and reason. As a born in myself, I wish I had had a father like you.
All the best to you and your little family!

Thank you for your very kind words! I was born in too, 4th generation JW - I am sincerely hoping there won't be a 5th generation JW in my family!

fulltimestudent: Good enough, or not good enough, is of no importance. Your daughter is on her own road, she has to travel it for herself, enjoying some beautiful things and weeping over the inevitable tragedies.

Yes, she has to do her own thinking, but I am the only person she has at present to offer a rational and scientific viewpoint (even her school teacher is a muslim who won't let the kids use the word 'hell', and changed a recent school topic from 'witches and wizards' to 'imaginary places'). As her only ambassador for rational thought, I'm keen to represent it in the best and most persuasive way I can. I am not a naturally good teacher, so I will greedily steal any ideas I can in furtherance championing rational and critical thinking, and am always on the lookout for ideas, advice or teaching techniques, or even just reassurance that I'm doing OK.

Thank you very much for all your replies.

24

JWs through the eyes of an eight year old

by maksutov in

my wife is a jw, and is teaching our eight year old daughter jw beliefs.

i am trying to teach her about evolution and critical thinking skills.

here is a conversation we had today (as best i can remember it):daughter: "why do bad things happen?

maksutov

My wife is a JW, and is teaching our eight year old daughter JW beliefs. I am trying to teach her about evolution and critical thinking skills. Here is a conversation we had today (as best I can remember it):

Daughter: "Why do bad things happen?"
Me: "Why do you think bad things happen?"
Daughter: "I don't know, I've only heard one opinion so far, that Satan causes them."
Me: "So do you think an invisible person goes around making bad things happen?"
Daughter: "Well, he's not a person, he's an animal, and he sends his demons to do bad things."
Me: "An animal?!"
Daughter: "Yes, I saw a picture of him as a lion, laughing while he made a man look at people having sex on the computer."
Me (wondering how on earth she knew what the man in the picture was looking at on the computer): "I see, so that's one possibility I suppose - invisible people or animals go round forcing people to do things. But how do we know whether that's true? There is no way to test for sure whether they really exist."
Daughter: "Well why do people get cancer?"
Me: I explained basics of cell division and that it sometimes just goes wrong - "it doesn't need an invisible person to make it go wrong, things do just go wrong sometimes."
Daughter: "Why do people grow old and die?"
Me: I explained about telomeres, likening them to the ends of shoelaces, and that when they get too short the chromosomes unravel and can't be repaired, again pointing out that it doesn't need an invisible person or animal to come along and make it happen, it is just part of how our bodies work.

We then got onto talking about evolution, and I said that unlike these invisible people there is lots of evidence for evolution. She then put on a defensive playground voice, saying "yeah? Prove it! You have to prove that we're wrong and you're right."

I pointed out that JWs have to prove these invisible people are real, I don't have to prove that they're not, and then explained some of the evidence for evolution (bacteria, viruses, fossils, Italian wall lizards, even geographical distribution). I don't know how much of that sank in. Then she asked (again with the defensive playground sing-song voice): "Where did the first human come from then?"

We have discussed that several times before, she knows about gradual evolution, and the common ancestry of apes and humans, but I showed her one of those pictures where a gradient goes from red to blue and pointed out that there was no single point where the colour changed from red to blue. That jogged her memory ("oh yeah, I forgot about the apes") and hopefully gave her a way to visualise gradual change.

Now I'm questioning whether I handled it well enough, or what else I could say. She's very bright, but she is still only eight! Even though she rarely goes to a meeting, she identifies strongly with JWs because I am the only member of her immediate family who isn't a JW, and most of her school friends are muslim, so she likes the idea of belonging to a religion. How would you answer questions like that in a way an eight year old can understand?

10

Reasons for Leaving

by maksutov in

i finally got my book finished.

it is available as a free ebook here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/527252 i'm sure the contents are familiar territory to most people here, but hopefully it will be of some use to those who are either thinking about joining or thinking about leaving.

maksutov

Now available in paperback! At cost price (no profit being made from the book):

UK: amazon.co.uk/dp/1511627883/

US: amazon.com/dp/1511627883/

11

What Exactly Is The JW View of Physical Discipline, Corporal Punishment?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i believe that since it is not politically correct to spank your child, the watchtower doesn't push parents anymore in that direction.. years ago, elders would sit a parent down and tell them that they needed to discipline their kids and if needed, give them a spanking, since the bible says, they won't die if you give them a beating.. what is the watchtower's view on this subject now?.

maksutov

I and my older brother were beaten (we are both in our 40's), but my younger brother was not (he's in his 30's). I think the attitude has softened considerably in the last 25 years, and it is now rarer for kids to be beaten by JW parents. I know my dad feels somewhat bad about it, as he once remarked that he wondered whether he was too harsh. He's still a faithful JW though.

40

The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)

by Fernando in

there seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.

i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.

if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.

maksutov

Viviane: Math is straight from babby Jesus and is held together and werks becuase of Gods Wholly Srprit!
http://www.christianperspective.net/math/god-and-math/
Checkmate!

Oh, I didn't know that. My bad. Wow, God is very generous - he makes sure one and one always equal two even for an atheist like me! He didn't have to do that (apparently).

40

The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)

by Fernando in

there seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.

i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.

if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.

maksutov

The universe must have laws - it could not exist without them. There is no other way for the universe to be (than to have natural laws). The laws themselves could be different to the ones we have, and if they were, we would not exist (but something else would). This does not require an intelligence to create the laws, the laws just are. 2+2=4 regardless of whether any intelligence exists to realise it. Nobody had to 'invent' the fact that 2+2=4, it just is. The laws of physics just are. Natural laws do not require a law maker - using man-made laws to claim that they do is a false analogy (a logical fallacy).

As such, to postulate that either life arose by 'chance' or was 'designed' is a false dichotomy (another logical fallacy). Natural laws influence what happens, making some outcomes more likely than others. It is not random, neither need it be intelligently controlled. For all we know, the probability that life would arise spontaneously given the laws of physics in our universe could be 100%. Or it could be 0.00001%. We don't know, because we don't know exactly what happened or how it happened. Either is fine, and neither requires an intelligent agent. Occam's razor should indeed be applied, but the existence of a supernatural intelligence greatly complicates things, since you then have to account for its existence - and the only way to do that is with special pleading (another logical fallacy).

The universe is reckoned to be about 13.82 billion years old btw.

36

Has This Site Ever Hurt You In Your Journey Out Of The JW Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

this site has gone through many metamorphosis over the years.

i believe it is a kinder, less edgy place tan it was a few years ago.

i wonder how many people were helped versus turned off by this place.

maksutov

I left 5 years ago, and checked out several sites. I found this one too abrasive at the time so I joined the yuku one. I agree it has mellowed now though, and it seems to me the one with the most interesting topics at the moment. It can still get a bit dicey in here though, which puts me off posting much.

3

Anyone going to MotoGP in Austin?

by JakeM2012 in

jw
friends

so i just received my one ticket to motogp in austin april 10,11,and 12. is anyone else in this neighborhood going?

maksutov

I love MotoGP, but I'm in the UK, so no, I won't be going to Texas, lol. I went to Silverstone last year though. Go Crutchlow!