Posts by Neo

In years past, I've frequently discussed this with my family, and they were literally oblivious to the subtle changes in the "vows." It was as if shifting from "Jehovah" to "WTS" made no discernible difference.

That's it! For all practical purposes, the WTS is Jehovah in the mind of JWs.

As I said in my recent post in Euripede's thread:

Our first question: Have you repented of your sin and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation and have you acknowledged to Him that salvation proceeds from Him the Father through His son Christ Jesus? HAVE YOU?!
The second question: On the basis of this faith in God and His provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourselves unreservedly to God, to do His will, henceforth as He reveals it to you through Christ Jesus, through the Bible, and under the enlightening power of His Holy Spirit? HAVE YOU?!?

There is no "organization" in those questions. They sound as standard Christian speech, with even some trinitarian overtones ('God, through Christ Jesus, under the Holy Spirit').

They shamelessly changed the baptism questions to include the Organization concept in the eighties:

The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?

They said that change was a "simplification":

*** w87 4/15 12 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***
Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization.

Weird concept, isn't it?

That's the JW's Holy Trinity: (1) The Father, (2) The Son, (3) The spirit-directed Faithful and Discreet Slave. And the three are One. ("Obey the Organization!")

9

Can anyone tell me the Baptism Questions for 1972 ?

by holly in

.

and does anyone know the baptism questions that are used today, or from 1984?.

been trying to research it but my computor knowledge involves 'move mouse' and 'press ok'.. thank you

Neo

Euripede's thread about the baptism talk:

Baptism talk from June 12, 1982 New Jersey Meadowlands

Neo

79

Describle a JW in the fewest words possible

by JH in

jw
friends

.

clean cut indoctrinated gullible follower

Neo

A picture is worth a thousand words:

(The mind of a Jehovah's Witness)

2

Baptism talk from June 12, 1982 New Jersey Meadowlands

by euripides in

recently i found a cassette recording of the baptism talk from june 12, 1982 at the new jersey meadowlands and i decided to transcribe it for posterity.

below is an entire transcription of the talk, with only a minimum of editorial intrusion.

would you like to turn to first peter chapter three?

Neo

Thanks, euripedes.

Well, by no means I have the will to read all of this, but, as Odrade has said, one thing stands out: the baptism questions.

Our first question: Have you repented of your sin and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation and have you acknowledged to Him that salvation proceeds from Him the Father through His son Christ Jesus? HAVE YOU?!
The second question: On the basis of this faith in God and His provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourselves unreservedly to God, to do His will, henceforth as He reveals it to you through Christ Jesus, through the Bible, and under the enlightening power of His Holy Spirit? HAVE YOU?!?

There is no "organization" in those questions. They sound as standard Christian speech, with even some trinitarian overtones ('God, through Christ Jesus, under the Holy Spirit').

They shamelessly changed the baptism questions to include the Organization concept in the eighties:

The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?

They said that change was a "simplification":

*** w87 4/15 12 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***
Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization.

Weird concept, isn't it?

That's the JW's Holy Trinity: (1) The Father, (2) The Son, (3) The spirit-directed Faithful and Discreet Slave. And the three are One. ("Obey the Organization!")

Neo

9

2 witnesses slain

by disciple in

in revelation 11 the two witnesses are given power to prophesy for 1260 days dressed in sackcloth.. in verse 7 they are killed, in verse 11 they are resurrected .

do you remember what book and when the earliest application of this scripture to the president of the society and i think the vice president occurred ?

i believe they said it occurred in 1918 or 1919. can you believe they thought the nations and all the earth were attuned to their little group and that a couple of them thrown in prison meant that they had fullfilled this prophecy.

Neo

Disciple,

Welcome to JWD!!

(Revelation 11:9-10) And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

Can you believe they thought the nations and all the earth were attuned to their little group and that a couple of them thrown in prison meant that they had fullfilled this prophecy.

I also thought exactly the same thing when I studied the WT's interpretation of Revelation. How come the world would pay attention to such an insignificant event, specially when you consider that a World War was taking place?

I don't know when they came up with that interpretation, maybe in the thirties with Rutherford, but they explain away the 'earth taking notice' of their "death" by the reaction of part of the US media and clergy to the imprisonment of the WT board of directors. The Revelation Climax book says:

*** re chap. 25 p. 168 Reviving the Two Witnesses ***
The Rejoicing of Revelation 11:10
In his book Preachers Present Arms, published in 1933, Ray H. Abrams refers to the clergy?s bitter opposition to the Watch Tower Society?s book The Finished Mystery. He reviews the clergy?s endeavors to rid themselves of the Bible Students and their "pestilential persuasion." This led to the court case that resulted in sentencing of J. F. Rutherford and seven companions to long years of imprisonment. Dr. Abrams adds: "An analysis of the whole case leads to the conclusion that the churches and the clergy were originally behind the movement to stamp out the Russellites. In Canada, in February, 1918, the ministers began a systematic campaign against them and their publications, particularly The Finished Mystery. According to the Winnipeg Tribune, . . . the suppression of their book was believed to have been directly brought about by the ?representations of the clergy.?"
Dr. Abrams continues: "When the news of the twenty-year sentences reached the editors of the religious press, practically every one of these publications, great and small, rejoiced over the event. I have been unable to discover any words of sympathy in any of the orthodox religious journals. ?There can be no question,? concluded Upton Sinclair, that ?the persecution . . . sprang in part from the fact that they had won the hatred of "orthodox" religious bodies.? What the combined efforts of the churches had failed to do the government now seemed to have succeeded in accomplishing for them." After quoting the derogatory comments of a number of religious publications, the writer referred to the reversal of the decision in the Court of Appeals and remarked: "This verdict was greeted with silence in the churches."

Neo

14

Young People Ask: Where do I go from here?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

if you're a young practising jw, maybe you've read the glossy brochure released in 2002 entitled, "youths - what will you do with your life?

did the idea of a full-time career in "jehovah's service" as a bethelite, ministerial servant, or international quick-build volunteer appeal to you?

or maybe you had other interests - maybe you were already at college or studying for a degree.

Neo

I'll print off that 1969 article from the Cd and show it to him, then make my pitch.

It's too bad they don't have the 1969 Awake! on CD-ROM. I have been looking for a scan of that article for a long time.

Could someone please help us? Dave will be formally disfellowshipped Thursday night and won't have contact with his brother-in-law after it is announced.

Neo

14

Young People Ask: Where do I go from here?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

if you're a young practising jw, maybe you've read the glossy brochure released in 2002 entitled, "youths - what will you do with your life?

did the idea of a full-time career in "jehovah's service" as a bethelite, ministerial servant, or international quick-build volunteer appeal to you?

or maybe you had other interests - maybe you were already at college or studying for a degree.

Neo

truthseeker,

Very good! That's what I call a reverse "Young People Ask". Take notice, you lurker!! The WT is getting weaker and weaker; there's no real future there.

Read what they wrote about careers

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ...
Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way towards its finish, if not actually gone!
This is why parents who base their lives on God's prophetic Word find it much more practical to direct their young ones into trades that do not require such long periods of additional schooling. ...
True, those who do not understand where we are in the stream of time from God's viewpoint will call this impractical. But which is really practical: preparing yourself for a position in this world that soon will pass away? or working toward surviving this system's end and enjoying eternal life in God's righteous new order?"

Guess when this article was published?

Answer: Awake!, May 22, 1969, p. 15.

The young people back then actually 'grew old'. You just can't trust the Watchtower!

Neo

5

4000 pages Excellent Work Simon

by stillajwexelder in

4000 pages - wow another landmark for this site.thankyou simon

Neo

I noticed the 4,000 page count too! Great!

But 30 million page views? That's a lot.... (We're proud to announce a new peak, brothers )

Neo

66

Bill Bowen on VH-1 discussing jw sex abuse!! (MichaelJackson biography)

by sf in

i am, right now, watching vh-1's history of the jacksons and in particular, the charges filed against him.. they just showed how mrs. jackson became a devout jw, showed the kh, and a few wt mags.

then, without expecting it, there was bill bowen!

talking about the epidemic of abuse in this church.

Neo

THIS IS HUGE!!

alt

Michael Jackson's secret childhood

Michael Jackson's life is on the line in front a California judge. But no matter the outcome of his trial on child molestation charges, the gap between how the world views Michael and how he sees himself has never been wider. In this special, VH1 News explains how the beloved child entertainer became such a bizarre public figure.

The answers lie in Michael Jackson's Secret Childhood. VH1 News has examined the singer's upbringing and found a life filled with abuse, hard labor, relentless ambition, and conflict between his religious upbringing and growing fame. Beginning with Jackson's birth in 1958 to the record-breaking success of his Thriller album in 1984, the special delves deep into Jackson's past, such as the mental and physical abuse he endured from his father, Joe Jackson (e.g., incessant rehearsals, whippings, calling Michael "big nose"); Joe exorcised his frustrations over his own failed musical career by exploiting his musically gifted children - especially Michael - by forcing them to perform in seedy bars and strip joints from Indiana to Ohio. At the same time, the proselytizing of his mother Katherine - a devout Jehovah's Witness - confused Michael about singing, sex and family secrets.

This show opens the doors to the Jackson family homes in Gary, Indiana and Encino, CA, to uncover bizarre, never-before-seen home movies of Michael dancing with Emmanuel Lewis and cavorting with Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. In exclusive interviews, viewers are introduced to Michael's first "little friend" the child actor Rodney Allen Rippey. Other interviews include former CBS Records music mogul Walter Yetnikoff, the man responsible for Michael pursuing a solo music career, but knew him since his childhood years as a member of the Jackson 5, Tatiana Thumbtzen, Michael's co-star from "The Way you Make Me Feel" video who tells her tale of unrequited love for the shy pop star, and Teresa J. Gonsalves, a childhood pen pal who got to see a side of Michael that very few were privileged to see. These people, along with celebrity family therapists, biographers and religion experts, all offer their theories about the man whose public antics have become a national obsession.