Posts by artful

9

THE WEALTHY MAN'S HUNGER

by Utopian_Raindrops in

we have nothing to eat.

then eat.

"try some of the kugel," his wife said as she pushed the plate back to him.

artful

Thanks for sharing this story Utopian!

Very fitting for this time of year.
Cheers
Artful

27

Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

by eyeslice in

i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.

the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.

9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.

artful

eyeslice: I think in the specific case you cite the answer seems self-revealing. The NWT has obviously inserted Jehovah (by their own admission - see footnote in NWT Reference Bible) and clouded the issue. When a proper translation is presented (NIV) it seems plain that throughout the entire scripture, the "Lord" that Paul is referring to leads us to Jesus who is to be "Lord of both the dead and the living".

As to trying to determine in other scriptures who is being referred to (God or Jesus), I think each scripture would have to be analyzed individually and/or in combination with supporting scriptures.

Cheers
Artful

17

Are JWs loosing it?

by eyeslice in

personally, i am more of a lurker than a poster, which i guess is because i am still very much on the fringes of the organization.

although many here have become bitter due to their experiences in the truth, i am sure that many of us look back on some really great times we had.

there was a time when there was a great feeling of optimism, new families (not just the odd individual here and there) were studying and coming along.

artful

Great Post IslandWoman:

your comment about FF being able to "able to spin us around so well we hardly knew we were spinning and it felt so good!" really hit the nail on the head!

Whyhideit: Thank you for a very touching, heartwarming post

I remember myself and the 3 pioneer bros that lived with me being so enthusiastic about the "1914 generation" and its imminent end. We used to have such zeal in preaching this "urgent" message, truly believing that we were demonstrating "love" for those in our territory. Now, as with myself, all but one of these bros is no longer attending JW meetings any more!

Looking back, to me this was a time of great friendships, but also a time of great deceits!

Cheers
Artful

19

COMMENTS YOU WON'T HEAR AT THE 12-22-02 WT STUDY

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 12-22-02 wt study.

november 1, 2002 watchtower page 14. christians neutrals in the last days .

john 17:16: "they are no part of the world, just as i am no part of the world.".

artful

Thanks for another great post Blondie!

It's nice to study the "Director's Cut" Watchtower at home like this while my wife is listening to the "Made-for-TV" version at the the KH today. This kind of research has certainally promoted some eye-opening conversations with her this year!

Cheers
Artful

7

When did the resurrection of the 144k begin?

by Bona Dea in

.

when do the jws teach that the resurrection of the 144,000 began?

just curious.... thanks in advance for any help

artful

Bona Dea:

NeonMadman wrote in another post, regarding the WTS 1918 date:
"Now, I'm sure you're wondering, why 1918? WTS says because it took 3 1/2 years for Solomon to build the temple, and the spring of 1918 is 3 1/2 years after the fall of 1914, when the "Gentile Times" ended. If you understand why those two time periods should be of the same length, you're one up on me. "

Hope this helps...bizarre!
Cheers
Artful

here is the address for the other post:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42729&site=3

10

Merry Christmas To Everyone!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

this is the first year i have ever told anyone merry christmas, so i just want to say..... merry christmas!.

what is christmas really about?.

i'll let the bible answer that (by the way, everyone can download 19+ bible translations absolutely free at http://www.e-sword.net):.

artful

Merry Christmas to you too UD!

Thanks for this list of reasons to celebrate the birth of Christ! Although some may take issue that the exact date of this event did not occur on or even close to Dec 25th, I think that the reasons for the celebration or Christ's birth are the most important.

Since this also happens to be the first time that I will celebrate a (very quiet) family Christmas with my (JW) wife and young daughter, this Christmas is an event that I am very much looking forward to!

Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Thanks for your replies Craig and Bona Dea!

This research originated with a conversation my brother and I had regarding the two classes of Christian from Rev 7 - he is a loyal follower of the JW theology. We both agreed that Rev 7 does seem to refer to two groups (144K and Great Crowd) so I thought it would be worthwhile to determine what the scriptures have to say about each group. I started this with the assumption (as you mentioned Craig) that I would find supporting scriptures outlining a clear connection between rulership and the 144K. What I did find is that there does not seem to be any such connection.

As to my motives, Yardif, I would suggest to you that one who does not clear away scripturally unsupported teachings can never hope to see the truth!....besides Yardif, isn't your technique of attacking the messenger and ignoring the message a little too obvious to be effective on this board?

Cheers
Artful

11

Is there a JW 'heaven' or NOT?

by Double Edge in

as a lot of you know, i'm one of the 'never been a dub' on this board, but i have a friend who's one.

in fact we had a long discussion last night, but i'll save that for another topic.

i was just reading a post about jws formerly celebrating christmas.

artful

NeonMadman: I have a problem with the "clone" body thing for the same reasons as you (see below). I also think that there are really two different things that need to be addressed:

1. When we talk about the "person" being re-created, what we have been talking about is the vessel that houses the "spirit" being re-created or newly created, not the actual spirit (or thing that makes each one of us unique). In a crude way, if our spirit could be likened to the data in a computer and our vessel to the computer box; without the data, the computer is just a dumb box. What the WTS says is recreated is the dumb box AND the data....therefore...

2. If the new clone body (spiritual or physical) AND spirit is not really the original person but a "new creation" then God might as well just abandon the original altogether and create a bunch of NEW perfect beings!

I don't believe this to true. Rather, I think that there has to be something that can exist outside of our vessel (physical or spiritual) that God PUTS BACK INTO a vessel at a later time. Whether that "something" is conscious of its existence at all times or not, I'm not sure. Otherwise, with the WTS "new creation" theology...why bother with the original at all!

I hope I am making sense...this thread is getting very philosophical!!

Cheers
Artful

20

Not the study article, but.......

by ozziepost in

a long-held teaching of the wts is that god allowed time after the fall of adam and eve to demonstrate to all creation the rightness of his rule.

this is again repeated in a current issue of the watchtower:

why did god not immediately destroy the first human couple along with satan, the invisible instigator of their rebellion?

artful

Why would he NOT allow things to continue? There is really no mention of this "continue or not" dilemma in the Bible. I think whenever you have free will there will be "sin", life is what it is, sin and all.

According to the Bible, the only way we can be redeemed and gain God's favor is through Christ.

Therefore, maybe God's original purpose was to have us live in sin on Earth and then be redeemed to heaven by Christ? Paul certainly indicated that the mosaic law (life on earth) was created by God as a shadow of things to come (the redemption to heaven through Christ). Then again, I don't know...

Artful

Edited by - artful on 19 December 2002 12:20:47

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Room 215:
Thanks for your comments! These two scriptures in no way contridict my claims. Consider it this way:

1. Jesus statement that "no one born of woman...." could easily be interpreted as the superiority of heavenly citizenship over earthly. No man was greater than John "on earth" but even "a lesser one" in the Kingdom of Heavens (born of Spirit) would be greater than John was on earth. Jesus here was using John (when he was alive on earth) to demonstrating the superiority of heavenly citizenship with that of earthly, he wasn't saying that John was never going to be part of a heavenly group.

2. Peter wrote that David "did not ascend to heaven" to demonstrate that when David wrote about not being "abandoned to the grave" he was not speaking of himself but of Jesus. The fact that David had at that time not ascended to heaven did not preclude his ever ascending to heaven. My contention is not that the faithful men of old had already ascended to heaven before Jesus death (as Jesus was the first to ascend to heaven) but rather that according to the scriptures they could and would do so at some time.

Artful