Hawkaw: thank you very much for your prompt reply. I will pass along this information. I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but it is also very disgusting to me that prior to this trial, elders from surrounding halls were soliciting funds from individuals in book study groups to help cover the legal costs of these 'poor elders'. Pathetic.
Vicki: I really admire you for what you have done. As others have said, no matter what the outcome, you have certainly raised awareness of this issue in Canada. Thank you for your courage.
Sincerely
Artful
artful
JoinedPosts by artful
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39
Vicki Boer v. Watchtower Child abuse Civil Trial - No News Yet but Update
by hawkaw invictoria a. boer v. watch tower bible and tract society of canada et.al.
involves vicki suing the watchtower and some of its elders.
the organization treated her paedophile father in high regard even after vicki came forward.
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artful
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artful
Thank you very much for this post Mac! Your research is very well presented. I have filed this ammunition to use on my JW 'studies'...LOL!
It never ceases to amaze me how well programmed the JW mind is. To not notice these blatant contradictions is nothing short of remarkable. Or, if they do notice, they of course realize that there is absolutely nothing they can do about it...repeat after me...we must remain loyal...we must remain loyal...
Cheers
Artful -
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Vicki Boer v. Watchtower Child abuse Civil Trial - No News Yet but Update
by hawkaw invictoria a. boer v. watch tower bible and tract society of canada et.al.
involves vicki suing the watchtower and some of its elders.
the organization treated her paedophile father in high regard even after vicki came forward.
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artful
Hawkaw: Thanks for this update. I heard a rumour this evening (April 10/03) that a decision had been handed down in Vicki's case in favour of the WTS this week. Although I could not find any information on the Toronto Star's Website about this - they have been covering the case. My wife had this information passed to her from one of the 'friends' in her hall. Is there any truth to this, or is it just 'service' fodder?
Thank you in advance for your response.
Artful -
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THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Weekly # 1 - Only 144,000 Go To Heaven?
by UnDisfellowshipped inthe truth will set you free weekly # 1 -- only 144,000 go to heaven?
disclaimer: i am not an expert on the bible.
1st peter 1:3: blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ, who according to his great mercy became our father again to a living hope through the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead,.
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artful
Thanks for the research UD! Some interesting lines of reasoning here. I have pasted this into a file and will review it in detail later.
Cheers
Artful -
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-6-03 WT Study
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 4-6-03 wt study .
february 15, 2003 wt page 17
quotes from the wt will be in red ; reviewers comments in black and parentheses.
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artful
Blondie: great post regarding the 'permafrost'. Once again we see an example of WT doublespeak. They want the flock to do more than just answer from the paragraph, but to do so we would have to ask where would the flock get their answers from? Certainly not from their 'individual' reading, and meditating of the things they read in the Bible. Rather, what they are really saying is, the flock should use more than just the WT paragraphs to answer the question, they should look up supplementary information supplied by the WT, in one of their many books, brochures, bound volumes, CDs, etc. That way the 'spiritually mature' person can really give an answer 'in their own words' (LOL), or at least using the 'different words' that the WTS has put in their mouth from a 1988 Watchtower article explaining the same topic!
Cheers, Artful (of the 'permafrost class')
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Should the 'other sheep' partake? An 'alien resident' parallel
by artful inanswer: christ's body.
answer: christ's blood.
answer: the new covenant.
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artful
Sorry for my delay in replying, I have been off-line for a few days.
Gumby: your toaster is in the mail!
John: Thanks for sharing those experiences regarding your 'sermon in the park'! I related it to my wife this evening, we both had a good laugh! Keep up the good work!
RF: Thanks for the compliment you heathen!! LOL. I hope you enjoy your 'new light' ;-)
Blondie: Thanks for that extra input from the WTS and your rebuttal of it. You are right on when you say that "Once again, the WTS applies points from the Law covenant when it suits their viewpoint."Cheers
Artful -
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THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Weekly # 1 - Only 144,000 Go To Heaven?
by UnDisfellowshipped inthe truth will set you free weekly # 1 -- only 144,000 go to heaven?
disclaimer: i am not an expert on the bible.
1st peter 1:3: blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ, who according to his great mercy became our father again to a living hope through the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead,.
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artful
Some good stuff here UD!However, a couple of points I'm not quite sure of:
1. You mention Jesus words in Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." seemingly to support the idea that both Jesus and the thief ascended to heaven that day. However, didn't Jesus ascend to heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3)?
2. You refer to the rapture (ascension to heaven in spirit/soul) as having applied to various ones in the OT. However, wasn't Jesus the first to ascend to heaven? (Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20) How do you reconcile this?
Cheers
Artful -
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-6-03 WT Study
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 4-6-03 wt study .
february 15, 2003 wt page 17
quotes from the wt will be in red ; reviewers comments in black and parentheses.
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artful
Blondie: You really did an excellent job dissecting this one!!
Good point that MANY of the 1st century Christians did not have these special gifts of spirit. As you point out, they make a remarkable comment in para 14: "Am I inclined to have deep emotions that I could misjudge?"
Wouldn't receiving God's spirit and having it 'bear witness with our spirit that we are his children' have a very deep emotional impact on us? In fact, in paragraph 18 they use this deep feeling as the main reason why those who are 'really' of the anointed are so sure of their calling!!I enjoyed your comment that 'without explanation or proof' the WTS goes on to make several statements regarding the 'two classes'. I noticed that although the preceding paragraphs are rife with scriptures, there are none quoted in support of their 'sealing' of the heavenly class in paragraph 11! I particularly loved the line from them that "By the 1930’s, then, it was becoming clear that, in general, the heavenly class had been chosen.." clear to whom!!!? They are so pathetic.
Thanks for pointing out the 'alien resident' issue. As you know, I posted another thread which details reasons why the GC should partake if these 'alien residents' were symbolic of the 'other sheep' - see:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/49192/1.ashx
To use WTS line of reasoning (that the alien residents could not become priests), we would also have to conclude that not all of the 'Israel of God' (read: the 144k) could be priests in heaven, only those of a 'Levi class' could - just as not all of the Israelites could become priests, only the Levites could.
A point regarding the WTS's dual use of the word 'observe' in these articles:1. Last week, the WTS made sure to point out that 'observing' the memorial is a direct command from Jesus .
2. They then defined what 'observing' the memorial actually means - namely to "Partake of the Memorial emblems" 3. This week, they use the same word 'observe' but apply it to those who are 'watching' but not actually 'observing' it in the way that Jesus commanded .
This is a very clever use of the word 'observe' on the part of the writers. Very clever, but of course very misleading! They manage to convince both groups that they are 'observing' the Memorial by applying two different definitions of the same word to each group. First by applying the word observe in the active sense to the 'anointed' (partaking), and then by applying the word 'observe' in the passive sense to the GC (watching). This allows rank and file JWs to confidently say that they "observe the Memorial". When what they are really saying is that they 'watch' the Memorial. When we read Jesus command to 'observe', it's obvious that he meant to 'partake', not to just 'watch' others doing this.Cheers
Artful .PS. Great comments AMNESIAN!
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Birthdays - I may need some input
by rocketman inwe had a birthday "party" for my daughter at a local restaurant today, with a group of her friends invited.
we are "inactive" but i still attend some meetings.
i do not comment or want any 'privilages'.. anyway, one person whom my daughter invited is a jw, though she has said that she may want to get out soon.
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artful
Rocketman
The comments below from the WTS may be of use to you if you are questioned by the elders or any other well meaning 'friends' or family regarding a birthday celebration.In the Awake of April 8 2003, a reader wrote in with a concern regarding an article the Awake had run on Hawaiian Luaus. Their very fair question read in part:
"Even if luaus today do not involve religious or spiritistic aspects, how are the different from other celebrations that have pagan origins but simply have been adopted by modern cultures to be a family fun gathering.?"Awake responds (in part): "...while the luau may at one time have had a connection with false religious practices, the word now has simply come to refer to a Hawaiian banquet."
So in other words, even though the luau has pagan origins, there is no connection made in the minds of those celebrating a luau in modern times with these 'false' practices. Therefore, a luau receive the WTS stamp of approval. As we see the WTS never really answered the readers' question which was "What makes a luau any different from other celebrations that have pagan origins but are now just a fun family gathering (ie. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Halloween, Valentines Day, (Birthdays?) etc, etc, etc.) As the reader suggested, why could we not apply that same principle that the WTS applies to a luau (simply a banquet or fun family gathering) to the numerous other celebrations - another WTS double standard it would seem - or is there a change in the wind?
Cheers Artful
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WT Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-30-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt comments you will not hear at the 3-30-03 wt study
february 15, 2003. wts quotes will be in red; reviewers comments in black or in parentheses.
why observe the lords evening meal?.
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artful
Blondie: that's a great quote, especially in light of the ever-increasing 'Remnant'. I'm going to look that article up about the evidence of the last days.
jgnat: Great comments about the foot washing cerimonies...ROTFLMAO!!! Incidentally, you may want to point out to your honey that the JW's actually don't observe this sacrament as Jesus commanded, for he said:
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall too much eating and drinking taking place at ANY Memorial observance I attended in the past! (although I'm sure you have pointed this out many times!)
Cheers
Artful