dan

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Posts by dan

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  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

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  dan

  What would you like me to explain about it?
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  58

  The resurrection of the flesh of Jesus Christ

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the church has traditionally held to the resurrection of the flesh of jesus christ:.

  ignatius (who according to ancient sources was a disciple of the apostle john).

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/anf-01/anf01-21.htm .

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  dan

  Well, if we have the truth then what you just said is valid; so I see the underlying theme as the veracity of our claim to priesthood authority. Why don't you quit harping on that garbage and discuss our claim to truth?
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  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dan

  elder, that isn't any kind of intellectual presentation, it's just a collection of things that you think will stir up emotions within me. I'm not here to manipulate or be manipulated. If you want to discuss something please remove the patronization. If you just want to score points with the other people in the forum then you find someone else to do it with.

  deputy, we do not believe in polygamy. Cool?
• 
  58

  The resurrection of the flesh of Jesus Christ

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the church has traditionally held to the resurrection of the flesh of jesus christ:.

  ignatius (who according to ancient sources was a disciple of the apostle john).

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/anf-01/anf01-21.htm .

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  dan

  Main Entry: cult
  Pronunciation: 'k&lt
  Function: noun
  Usage: often attributive
  Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
  1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
  2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
  

  Yes, the JWs are a cult, so are the Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Protestants and Methodist (and Evangelists and pentocostals and every other group that practices formal religious veneration. Your example is what they call "relativism". You decide what you want stuff to mean based on society's acceptance of it. This is why words change meaning and our language slowly degenerates into mediocrity. Relativism is an atheistic invention, and no one in intellectual circles takes it seriously. Study philosophy in a university and they won't study relativism very much (there aren't any relativists of note in the world).
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  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dan

  Well, you seem to be demanding the same of me, so I fail to see how your argument logically trumps mine so as to render your responsibility towards evidence null and void.
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  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dan

  All of these arguments are just histrionics and semantics. All you are doing is taking my arguments and saying, "NU-uh. You're a liar. You're wrong. You're stupid. There's, like, zero evidence to support it, man." There's also zero evidence to support the fact that the two of you exist, but I still believe you do. Don't jump on my case like that. Present evidence or quit whining.
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  58

  The resurrection of the flesh of Jesus Christ

  by hooberus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the church has traditionally held to the resurrection of the flesh of jesus christ:.

  ignatius (who according to ancient sources was a disciple of the apostle john).

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/anf-01/anf01-21.htm .

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  dan

  Hooberus, that's another forced inference. He is not man. He was a man. If you have melted ice, is it still ice? No. If you have burnt paper, is it still paper? No. They are two different substances that share a common connection. An exalted man was once a man, now he's not.
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  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

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• 

  dan

  Sure, why not. I'll begin in the Olt Testament, take you to the New Testament, and then show some writings of early church authorities.

  Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee". God tells Jeremiah he was ordained to be a prophet before he was formed in the womb.

  John 9:2 - "who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" This is in reference to the Jewish belief in the pre-mortal existence. How could this man otherwise have sinned before he was born? They were off in thinking he could have sinned, but they weren't following the prophet anyway, so they weren't 100% accurate in a lot of things.

  How about early church leaders? They had a lot of beliefs that you've never heard of.

  The doctrine of premortal existence of the soul seems to have been part of the secret tradition. In the Clementine Recognitions, Peter tells Clement, "after all these things He made man, on whose account He had prepared all things, whose internal species is older, and for whose sake all things were made." And yet, when confronted by the heretic Simon Magus about the same question, Peter responded quite differently. "You seem to me not to know what a father and a God is: but I could tell you both whence souls are, and when and how they were made; but it is not permitted to me now to disclose these things to you, who are in such error in respect of the knowledge of God." Similarly, R. G. Hammerton-Kelly traces the concept of preexistence in the Bible and finds that it is everywhere presupposed in Paul's writings but nowhere made explicit. "Although Paul would never have used the term 'pre-existence', the concept which it describes is constitutive of his whole soteriological scheme."

  The Recognitions also allude to an esoteric tradition regarding salvation for the dead:

  When he had thus spoken, I answered: "If those shall enjoy the kingdom of Christ, whom his coming shall find righteous, shall then those be wholly deprived of the kingdom who have died before His coming?" Then Peter says: "You compel me, O Clement, to touch upon things that are unspeakable. But so far as it is allowed to declare them, I shall not shrink from doing so . . . for not only shall they [the righteous dead] escape the pains of hell, but shall also remain incorruptible, and shall be the first to see God the Father, and shall obtain the rank of honour among the first in the presence of God."

  What about the practice of "baptism for the dead," alluded to by Paul (see 1 Corinthians 15:29) and adopted by the Latter-day Saints (see D&C 127-28)? In another passage, Peter intimated that the unbaptized righteous would obtain some reward in the present life but that future rewards were reserved for those who preserve righteousness through baptism. "But so well pleasing . . . is chastity to God, that it confers some grace in the present life even upon those who are in error; for future blessedness is laid up for those only who preserve chastity and righteousness by the grace of baptism."

  Yeah, baptism for the dead was also practiced. Freaking chrstians always copying us Mormons 2,000 years before we existed. Pre-mortal existence was a commonly accepted belief, but Aristotle had the idea that there was only one existence, not two (like the neo-platonic ideas that had already raped the Gospel of her virtue) and St. Thomas Aquinas set out to wed the two philosophies (Christianity and Aristotelian ideas), without making one singe effort to change Aristotle's ideas. He molded Christianity to fit into Aristotle's beliefs, thereby doing away with many of the original Christian beliefs that you now call blasphemy.
• 
  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dan

  The problem is the words are not the same. The Greek word denotes a ransom. Reconcile is loosely translated that way, but look closer. "Atonement" has meaning in many languages. Let us begin (by the way, I'm not copying this from another site. I'm taking it out of my head).

  Hebrew - kaphar - to cover, more accurately, to embrace tightly (in order to become one - at-one-ment).

  Arabic - kafat - to cover tightly. In the middle east a man fleeing for his life would run into the tent of a sheik and cry "ana dakhiluka" (I am thy supplicant) and the sheik would cover the man with his robe, taking him under his protection.

  Latin - capto - to grasp tightly, to grasp at.

  Egyptian - hpet - (the heiroglyph is a torso with outstretched arms, signifying an intimate embrace).

  The word "atonement" denotes a cover (the mercy seat? a.k.a. a cover, a.k.a. kippurim, the place of atonement) or, more accurately, an intimate embrace.

  Reconcile has a completely different meaning. It comes from the Latin - reconcilio. Some tranlslate it "to restore to original favor." "Concilio" is where we get the word "council," (to sit down with someone) while reconcilio means to sit down with someone again. In a way to be restored to original favor is accurate. When were we first sitting with God? Well, in the pre-mortal existence, of course. The early Christian church firmly believed in this doctrine until Aristotelian monism forced it out of the church. The apostasy caused many doctrines to be changed so that they could be wedded to human philosophy. Through the atonement our sins are covered and we are made worthy to sit down again with our Father in Heaven.

  Look at the parable of the prodigal son and imagine what you would do if your wayward son walked into your living room after years of rebellion. What's the first thing you would do? You would hug him, wouldn't you? Then you would have him sit a spell with you, so you could talk. God is only waiting for us to go back home. We're only sojourners here on the earth, trying to find our way back to our heavenly origins. The words are not the same, as a comprehensive understanding of the Bible and its languages will show. Atonement only appears in the Old Testament, and its presence in the NT didn't seem right (and its not).

  You're up.
• 
  108

  Ressurection question

  by Sookie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm hoping someone can help me out.

  based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

  just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dan

  "Both pronunciations are acceptable by today's standard. Everyone knew what elderwho meant when he wrote the word forte'."

  I know that's what he meant, but I couldn't help but take a prod at him. Forgive me. I still think today's standards are not always the right standards. Your line of thinking is called moral relativism, and it's not Christian. God is not interested in today's standards, and neither am I.

  OK elder. I was reading in the NT the other day (KJV) and I came across the word "atonement" in Romans. It seemed like an odd place for that word, so I decided to check the Greek to see if it's accurate. Explain to me, if you would, what the word should be, and then explain to me (etymologically) the difference between atonement and the word that should be there, (providing scriptural references, of course). This should be a good warm-up.