most of those who read my comments and posts here know i'm not a witness but a historian who writes about them.
as my writing partner and i near completion of volume 2 of separate identity, we need scans of any letters, post cards or what have you written by russell, any of his associates or any pre-1916 adherent - no matter how insignificant they may appear.. can you helps with this?
we also need clear scans of watch tower convention programs from that era.. i appreciate any help that comes my way.. rachael.
I am not sure what you are looking for, but one can find all of Brother Russell's known extant published woks at:
http://mostholyfaith.com
Other material may be found at:
http://heraldmag.org/olb/
http://herald-magazine.com
http//archive.org also has many items related to the Bible Students in Russell's time. Sometimes, however, they are hard to find when trying to use their search or other methods provided on the site.
i have a request to our friends living in the usa.
im trying to track down an article printed by time magazine in which they interviewed fred franz.
in my local library here in liverpool they have a massive bound volume collection of time going back to the 1930s.
mentalclarity is wrong about Russell's expectation for 1914. Russell was never expecting Christ's Second Coming in 1914.
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
When I posted my last post, I was thinking I had not posted to this thread before. I see now that I have.
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
vienne
Pyramidology did not come from Masonic belief but from two British writers. The one most influential on Russell was Charles Piazzi Smyth. Russell circulated for a brief while a pyramidology book by J. A. Seiss, an American Lutheran pastor. There is nothing in Russell's theology that parallels Masonic belief or practice.
I am a Bible Student; I am not affiliated with the JWs, but I have been studying the writings of Bible Students for more than 50 years, including that of Russell. I am hoping to make a few statements regarding some of the things posted.
Yes, Russell's study of God's Witness in Egypt has nothing at all to do with the Masons. In my discussions with some of the Masons, none of them I have conversed with has any knowledge of God's Witness in Egypt. Indeed, although there might be a some Masons who are Christians who may have taken some interest in the study of God's Witness in Egypt, it does not appear to something generally studied among the Masons. Furthermore, since not all Masons profess to be Christian, it could not be applied universally to the Masons. Nor have a found such an general interest in the study of God's Witness in Egypt among the Knight Templar, although, again, various individual members of Knights Templar may have some interest in such a study. If, however, a Mason were to take a serious interrest in Russell's study of God's Witness in Egypt, it would lead one to the conclusion that being a member of the Masons is actually vanity.
Most of what Russell presented about God's Witness in Egypt came from Nelson Barbour.
Russell never used the word "pyramidology", and as best as I can tell neither did Nelson Barbour. I believe Piazzi Smyth used that word once or twice. The word simply means "pyramid study" or "study of pyramids". As the word was originally used, it did not mean what it is often attributed to that word today: spiritism, pyramid power, etc. Russell did not believe in "pyramid power", spiritism, astrology, etc.
Much of my research related to Russell and the Freemasons may be found at:
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
Finkelstein stated:
<<So what we have then is strange coincidence of Russell's and others adherence to Pyramidology>>
I am not sure what is meant by "adherence to Pyramidology". My concern is that this terminology would create an idea in many reader's minds that would not actually match the reality. Russell never spoke of "Pyramidology" or of any adherence to such. The word "pyramidology" today, however, is often used to describe many beliefs and practices that Russell rejected, yet I have seen many anti-Russell authors make all kinds of false claims about Russell and "Pyramidology". Russell's Biblical study of God's Witness in Egypt had nothing at all to do with any kind of practice of astrology, spiritism, pyramid power, heathen occult rituals, etc.
Additionally, Russell presented his study on the Great Pyramid, not as being dogma, but rather as his own conclusions. Unlike Rutherford, Russell never claimed any authority to demand that anyone had to accept his conclusions in order to be a Christian, or fellowship with the Bible Students, etc.
Finkelstein stated:
<<and the Freemason's adherence to the Great Pyramid in Egypt and their identity as Stonemason builders, simple coincidence ?>>
So far what I have actually found regarding the Masons and Great Pyramid is scattered individual opinions that offer very little similarity to what Russell taught and believed about the Great Pyramid.
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
Crazyguy stated:
<<Wouldn't the pyramid and all the symbols on his grave site as well as him being buried at a Masonic site be a good indication that he was a Mason?>>
The symbols on Russell's grave show that he believed in the harvest that Jesus spoke of.
The symbols on Rutherford's pyramid monument are Biblical symbolism and references to the Bible, including the monument itself.
Russell was not buried at a Masonic site.
There is nothing about Russell's burial site that offers any proof at all the Russell was a Mason.
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
Finkelstein stated:
Knights Templar and Masons borrowed from Christian Symbolism, not the other way around.
Of course that is not of debate, Freemasonry is inherently Judaeo Christian.
<<The debate is about from where and from whom did Russell derive "SOME" of his theological ideas or borrowed symbolism.
Seems to be deliberate dismissive about Russell obtaining some theological influence from the Freemason Organization.
Maybe we should adhere to some more intellectual honesty instead biased blindness ?>>
Russell, of course, had no reason to record the lineage of usage of Biblical symbolism he used. The idea that he did not does not give any reason to imagine and assume that he obtained his Biblical symbolism from the Freemason organization. On the other hand, it would really would not make any difference it he did make use of some symbolism as used by the Knights Templar. It actually proves nothing at all.
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
Finkelstein stated:
<<Likewise did he obtain that Knights Templar image used on the top right corner of Zion's Watchtower from a Baptist Church ? Probably not .>>
The fact is that there is no "Knights Templar image used on the top right corner of" Russell's Watch Tower. One may imagine and assume that it is a Knight's Templar symbol, although in reality, there is absolutely no reason to so imagine and assume.
Finkelstein stated:
<<Let it be understood that Russell may not have been a registered Freemason but he did plagiarize and use wherever he thought that would gravitate public interest and support to this publications, The Watchtower or otherwise. >>
I have no reason at all to think Russell lied when he stated: "I have never been a Mason." (Sermon: The Temple of God)
We have the overwhelming testimony of Russell's lifetime works that provide solid evidence that he definitely was not a Mason. It is totally nonsensical to think that Russell spent almost his entire life, his fortune, every day, day after day, teaching and preaching a message that would actually sabotage what he actually believed in. If his works were printed in regular book size with regular type size, more than like it would take more 100,000 page to print it all. Absolutely all of this word he did testifies that he was not in support of what is often attributed to being Masonic agenda, or Illuminati agenda, etc. Why would a man spend all his hours everyday proclaiming a message that actually would sabotage what people like Fritz Springmeier and David Icke have claimed that he was supporting?
Definitely, Russell did not lie when he said, "I have never been a Mason."
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
Finkelstein stated:
>>Russell used Freemason Halls quite frequently as he traveled throughout the US, the IBSA used a Freemason Hall even recently in my home town of Vancouver BC .>>
Russell quite frequently spoke in Oddfellows' rooms, hotel rooms, school rooms, Armory rooms, and rooms owned by Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and many, many other organizations. He often would make use of something taught by various religious organizations to illustrate something in the Bible. The fact that he spoke in such places does not at all mean that he was condoning the beliefs or practices of the owners of any of these places. It definitely does not mean that he was a member of any of these organizations.
Finkelstein stated:
<<There is little doubt that Russell plagiarized some symbols from his association with the Freemasons.>>
There is no doubt at all that he, like many Christians before him, made use of Biblical symbolism. I have no reason to think that he took the Biblical symbolism he used from the Freemasons. The Knights Templar, professing to be Christian, actually took their symbolism from Christians who had been using such symbolism. Any usage of such Biblical symbolism by the Knights Templar or by Masons who profess to be Christian does not give reason to imagine and assume that such symbolism is exclusive to the Masons, making such symbolism exclusively "Masonic" or "Knights Templar" symbolism.
For some links to some of my research on this, one may see:
paul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
wozza stated:
<<For me the fact that Russel started a religion from others thoughts and writings and populist thinking makes him someone who was'nt unique then.... He successfully started a crooked american religion that we got sucked into and I'm so thankful that years ago I found this site (thanks Simon) and traced it,s history on the major points ,the small details don't matter .>>
Russell did not start a religion; he did start his magazine and he started a legal entity. After Russell died, Rutherford virtually destroyed the Watch Tower as Russell created by having new by-laws passed. The voters were not permitted to even read these by-laws, but they voted to passed them based simply on their trust that Rutherford was doing the right thing.
Russell, however, did not believe in starting any religion, and he certainly did not start the Jehovah's witnesses religion. After Russell died, Rutherford created the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, styled after the Catholic hierachy. Russell actually preached against such authority and he preached against the message of the organization.
Russell's desire to stay by the Bible in what he taught, however, led him to reject the popular teachings of his day.
wozza stated:
<<Whether he was a Mason does'nt matter to me to prove he was not from god ,he finished his days and is rotting in the ground with borrowed symbols for a tombstone.>>
Russell was definitely not a freemaon -- his whole life work overwhelming proves that he was a Mason, and definitely not in harmony with imperfect sinful taking over the world; Russell preached that the Bible was from God. The Biblical symbolism that is on his tombstone is indeed borrowed from the Bible.
One can see pictures of Russell's orginal gravestone (which was more in harmony with his last will and testament) and the tombstone as it is now.
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2016/11/grave.html
As pointed out on the page linked to above, however, many confuse Rutherford's later monument replica of God's Witness as being Russell's tombstone, while it is not. Nevertheless, the Biblical symbolism on that monument is also borrowed from the Bible.
I personally will be eternally thankful to God for the work Russell did, especially regarding the ransom as shown in the Bible which reveals the only reasonable explanation I have found for why God is allowing all the present suffering of mankind. It is sad that Rutherford rejected that message and replaced it with his own message that basically states, "Join my organization or be eternally destroyed in Armageddon." Rutherford's new alleged "good news" of woe that will be for most of the people was almost the very opposite of the glad tidings of great joy that will be for all the people that Russell spent his life proclaiming and defending.
