food at the proper time?
there is a huge difference between an opinion and a false teaching.. what if it could be unambiguously demonstrated that a teaching is not merely opinion but a false religious view passed off as absolute truth in the name of a higher authority?.
would that not be fraud?
Below a list is culled from various publications by C.T. Russell who was the mouthpiece of the Lord.
Charles Taze Russell, who was never a member of any governing body for the Jehovah's Witnesses, referred to himself and all Christians as mouthpieces for God. In other words, anyone who gives testimony concerning Jesus and God's kingdom is a mouthpiece for God.
http://ctr.reslight.net/2010/01/01/mouthpiece.html
Ronald R.
interesting article from time in 1937.. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,730814,00.html.
religion: judge rutherfordmonday, aug. 01, 1927.
"through the gracious providence of jehovah," the voice of judge joseph frederick rutherford, president, the international bible students' association, boomed from toronto last week to pass out from 53 separate radio broadcasting stations.
I might add that Russell did not teach that the third world was to end 2874; he believed the third heavens and earth are to never end.
interesting article from time in 1937.. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,730814,00.html.
religion: judge rutherfordmonday, aug. 01, 1927.
"through the gracious providence of jehovah," the voice of judge joseph frederick rutherford, president, the international bible students' association, boomed from toronto last week to pass out from 53 separate radio broadcasting stations.
littlebird said:
Interesting, never heard of the cosmos stuff.
Russell wrote on this in the first volume of Studies in the Scriptures (The Divine Plan of the Ages), especially in Study IV and Study XII.
The use of the English word "cosmos", however, may leave the wrong impression, since "cosmos" in English often leaves the impression of the whole universe, and thus does not exactly match the usage of the word "kosmos" in the Bible. Peter used the word "kosmos" (order, arrangement, system of things) in speaking of the world, the heavens and the earth, that passed away in the flood of Noah's day, thereby leaving the thought of three kosmoi (three worlds), that kosmos that perished in the flood of Noah's day (2 Peter 3:6), the kosmos that now is (2 Peter 3:7), and the new kosmos (new heavens and new earth -- 2 Peter 3:13).
i'm having the whole heaven & hell discussion again w/ the wife...brought up matthew 25:41-46 as proof it exists,then the wife balked & looked to the friends for help.
the good news is that my wife now respects the fact that i won't read anything printed by the filthy slave, but the fight's still not fair.
can anyone give me more scriptures of the bible to use?
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is the only verse in the entire Bible that speaks of torment (in most translations) forever, and it doesn't speak of souls or spirits of human beings being tormented, but rather it speaks of the devil, a wild beast, and a false prophet as being tormented (literally, touchstoned). The Greek word often rendered "tormented," however, could be rendered as "examined", or "tested", as being a close approximation of verb form of the Greek verb used, a verb form of the word for "touchstone." The devil, symbolizing also the works of the devil, the symbolic wild beast with seven heads and ten horns, the symbolic false prophet (the image of the wild beast), are examined continuously for all eternity as symbols of the past reign of sin.
To emphasize: The statement in Revelation 20:10 is concerning, not human beings, but rather the symbolic devil, a symbolic wild beast, and a symbolic false prophet. No actual living creature is ever spoken of as being tormented forever. The wild beast is described as having seven heads and ten horns; are we to think that there will be a literal wild beast with literal seven heads and literal ten horn that will be actuallly kept alive forever so as be tortured?
We do read:
Revelation 20:14 - Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15 - If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
We note that the symbolism of "Death and Hades" are thrown into the lake of fire. We are not to think that "Death and Hades" are to be conscious and "tormented" for all eternity in that lake, but rather they are destroyed by being thrown into that symbolic lake. The "Death" being spoken of is -- represents -- the condemnation received through Adam. Without the redemption through Jesus, those dead in Hades would have remained in that dead condition forever. ( Hosea 13:14 ; 1 Corinthians 15:21 , 22 ; Romans 5:12-19 ) "Hades" (Hebrew, Sheol) represents the oblivious condition of that death. ( Ecclesiastes 9:10 ) With the curse upon mankind lifted, that condemnation and its condition are both eliminated, and both of these are symbolically depicted as being destroyed by their being thrown into the lake of fire.
Those humans who refuse to obey the Good News in the millennial age so as to have their names written in the book of life then opened to them will also be thrown into the lake for fire, but nothing is said about their being "tormented" forever in that condition. They also simply cease to exist, just as Adamic death and Hades cease to exist by being symbolically being thrown into that symbolic lake. There is no more ransom for those who receive the judgment of the second death. ( Hebrews 10:26 ) They remain dead for eternity.
Returning to Revelation 20:10 , when we look up the nounal root of the word that is translated "tormented", we find that the word means "touchstone". The verb form appearing in Revelation 20:10 would most literally be rendered "touchstoned", which sounds somewhat strange in English. Nevertheless, a touchstone is used to "try" or "test" other stones, so that the symbolism figuratively denotes a trying or testing. The expression "day and night" also does not refer to literal "day and night"; if it were speaking of literal days and nights, then it would indicate that they were being "touchstoned" somewhere on the earth, for from the perspective of the scriptures, day and night has to do with the earth. Actually, in speaking figuratively, it simply denotes a continual condition of the testing being spoken of. While Satan's works as symbolized by "the devil" will be destroyed (including the person of Satan as well as his demons), the "works" symbolized by the devil will serve as a testing for all eternity to come. Likewise, with the works of systems or organizations symbolized by the wild beast and the false prophet.
i'm having the whole heaven & hell discussion again w/ the wife...brought up matthew 25:41-46 as proof it exists,then the wife balked & looked to the friends for help.
the good news is that my wife now respects the fact that i won't read anything printed by the filthy slave, but the fight's still not fair.
can anyone give me more scriptures of the bible to use?
kzjw said:
I'm having the whole heaven & hell discussion again w/ the wife...brought up Matthew 25:41-46 as proof it exists,then the wife balked & looked to the friends for help. The good news is that my wife now respects the fact that I won't read anything printed by the filthy slave, but the fight's still not fair. Can anyone give me more scriptures of the Bible to use? She just sent out her call to an elder & field service partner today,so I know part 2 is coming....
If the thought is that Matthew 25:41-46 in some way supports the idea that those depicted as goats will be consciously suffering for eternity somewhere, Jesus never said that. If these verses are thought to support the idea of going to heaven or a hell of eternal suffering when one dies, there is nothing at all in what Jesus about such a thing.
The verses referenced are part of the parable of the sheep and goats. -- Matthew 25:31-46
In that parable, Jesus speaks of gathering the nations -- the heathen -- to be judged. The gathering of the nations that Jesus speaks of takes place by restoring them to life so that they may be judged, not by their past works, but by their works as related to the books that will then be opened. ( Revelation 20:11-13 ).
We should not think that Jesus is speaking of the gathering of nations that takes place at Armageddon for the executing of God's judgment as begun upon man through Adam. "`Therefore wait for me,' says Yahweh, `until the day I rise up for plunder, my determination is to gather the nations, to my assembly of kingdoms, to pour on them my indignation, all my fierce anger. All the earth will be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." ( Zephaniah 3:8 ) Zephaniah's prophecies speaks of the summation of the first condemnation, the condemnation of death through Adam. That condemnation through Adam would have been eternal had it not been for the ransom sacrifice provided by Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) The execution of judgment at that time is to convince the ungodly of their sins, thus indicating that their destruction is not eternal but rather for the purpose of disciplining. ( Jude 1:15 ; 2 Peter 3:7 , 10 ) It is during this transition period that Satan's world is destroyed. It is not until after the destruction of this present evil world that Yahweh `turns to the peoples a pure language.' ( Zephaniah 3:9 ) Any execution of the judgment upon the unbelieving nations at the end of this age will thus not be eternal, but will fall under the condemnation in Adam. The peoples of the world are still being blinded by Satan. ( 2 Corinthians 4:4 ) It is not until after Satan is bound and the veil of blindness is removed that it can truly be said that the nations have received a pure language. ( Isaiah 25:6-7 ; Revelation 20:3 ) And the method of gathering the nations at that time will be through the awakening of the dead, in the day when many will be turned to righteousness. -- Revelation 20:11-13 ; Daniel 12:2 , 3 .
The gathering (that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25) to be judged is speaking of heathen -- the nations, the unbelievers, when they will be enlightened and judged in the age to come. (Isaiah 2:2-4) Jesus is describing the what happens to those of the "resurrection of judgment," the "resurrection of the unjust." (John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15) Jesus spoke of these in John 12:47,48, saying, in effect, that he had come to save, deliver those who do not believe that they might be judged in the "last day." Thus, Jesus death and resurrection guarantees a new trial, new judgment day, for the world of mankind. (Acts 17:31)
And thus we have the proper setting for the judgment of the sheep and the goats. The "sheep" of the parable are not the sheep of the present age, whom the Master knows and who know the Master. ( John 10:14 ) Rather these are the "other sheep" who are not of the fold that recognize the Master in the present age. They are brought forth out of death. These become the sheep of the next age. These do not inherit a place in the ruling house of God, but do inherit the kingdom prepared from the founding of the world, the kingdom that was prepared for Adam and which he lost. ( Matthew 25:34 ; Genesis 1:28 ; Psalm 8:3-8 ; Hebrews 2:6-8 ) These inherit these promises, not after Armageddon, but after the final eternal destruction of the wicked which takes place after the thousand-year reign of Christ, the day which God has appointed "in which he will judge the world in righteousness." -- Revelation 20:7-9 ; Psalm 37:9-11 ; Acts 17:31 .
Not until the conclusion of the Millennium will the decision of the Judge be manifested. Then great surprise will be shown at his decision -- by both parties. To the "sheep" at his right hand he will say: "Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." ( Matthew 25:34 ) When God laid the foundation of the earth it was his design to have it inhabited with perfect, happy humans. ( Isaiah 45:12 , 18 ) This is not the same kingdom as the Messianic kingdom. On the contrary, it is the kingdom which God gave to Adam, which Adam lost through his disobedience and which Christ redeemed by the sacrifice of himself. ( Genesis 1:26 ; Psalm 8:4-8 ; Hebrews 2:7-9 ) It will be given to those who will have developed complete Godlikeness -- those who have become the Lord's "other sheep" during the Millennium. John 10:16 .
Then the other class, the goats of the parable, will be sentenced: "Depart, you cursed ones, into everlasting punishment." Granted all the privileges, blessings and experiences during the thousand years of contact with righteousness, truth and the spirit of God, these, though they had rendered an outward obedience in refraining from sins of violation, but at heart they had not come into harmony with God. They will, therefore, not be recognized as "sheep." Failing in developing pure Godlikeness they cannot be presented to the Father as blameless and irreprovable. They will have to be destroyed. This punishment, however, the final vengeance of God, is the second death, "everlasting destruction." ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8 , 9 ) Their penalty is an everlasting one because there will be no further provision made for their redemption or for a resurrection from the second death. They will have failed utterly to appreciate the goodness of God and to develop into his likeness. Eternal life is only for those who have God's likeness and God's spirit. `The Father is seeking such to worship him in spirit and truth.' -- John 4:23 .
After the day of Judgment Satan will be loosed from his bonds for a short period of time. ( Revelation 20:7 ) It appears that then those of the goat class will show their true colors as they follow Satan at that time. ( Revelation 20:8 ) It is at the end of this short intermediate period that the goats receive their punishment of "everlasting destruction." In Revelation 20:8 they are pictured as being destroyed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven. Revelation 21:8 speaks of them as `cowardly and unbelieving, having become foul, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, liars,' etc. These have their portion in the second death represented by the "lake of fire." We do not believe that during this short period of time when Satan is released that the goat class will actually be permitted to enter into murder. But our thought is that by their hatred for their fellow-man they show that they have murder in their hearts. Exactly how all this will be fulfilled toward the goat class during the short period of time Satan is let loose we do not presently know. All we can see is that somehow Satan gets the goat class to follow him against God.
Their sentence to eternal destruction evidently occurs just at the close of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. It appears to be delayed for only a short time as they depart into the everlasting fire made ready for the devil and his angels. The everlasting fire represents God's eternal zeal for righteousness and against unrighteousness. At the end of the Millennium it is made ready or prepared to destroy all in opposition to God. But they are allowed a short period of time to prove their opposition. Therefore they are sentenced sometime before they receive their punishment. They receive the sentence of eternal destruction because of failure to develop the spirit of love, for love is the fulfilling of the law. None can meet the divine approval except those whose sentiments will attain to the degree of loving Yahweh with all their hearts, minds, being and strength, and their neighbors as themselves. ( Matthew 23:37-40 ; Romans 13:8 ; Galatians 5:14 ; 6:2 ) The sheep of the Millennial Age, we may be sure, will attain to this love which God's law marks as the proper measure of God-likeness. The goats of the Millennial Age, we may be equally sure, will be the ones who will not have this God-likeness.
What did Jesus mean when he said the goats go into eternal punishment? The Greek word rendered "everlasting" is not as strong as our English word which represents it. However, it is the same word that is used in referring to everlasting life which will be granted the sheep. It may be well, however, to notice that life, being Yahweh's gift to the sheep, indicates that no life will be given to the goats -- it thus would state the kind of punishment which the Scriptures describe, namely, a death punishment, an extinction of life; and this extinction of life will continue forever, as we have seen. Hence while the punishment is everlasting, the second death condemnation does not mean that the person continues to consciously suffer over and over and over for every split second for all eternity. The wages of sin for the first condemnation in Adam was not eternal suffering, for Jesus suffered once -- not for eternity -- to pay those wages of sin. ( Hebrews 7:27 ; 9:26 ; 10:10 ; 1 Peter 3:18 ; 4:1 ) Likewise, with the second condemnation, only there is no more sacrifice for sin that will cover anyone under the second condemnation, thus the resulting death is an everlasting punishment, signifying a death from which there will be no release. -- Hebrews 10:26
charles taze russell: his life and times: the man, the millennium and the message by fredrick zydek is the latest biography on pastor russell, and i must say i am very impressed.
i have read other historiees on the pastor russell by zydek (all unpublished manuscripts) but this one is far better than the last one authored by charles redeker aq few years ago.
zydek is a catholic.. the author is neither a bible student or a jehovah's witness.
diamondiiz said:
Lade Lee: Would you happen to have any of those souvenir reports scanned by any chance? TIA
You may find the text of the reports at:
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/bsllinks/Treatises.htm
Scroll down until you see "Convention Reports".
charles taze russell: his life and times: the man, the millennium and the message by fredrick zydek is the latest biography on pastor russell, and i must say i am very impressed.
i have read other historiees on the pastor russell by zydek (all unpublished manuscripts) but this one is far better than the last one authored by charles redeker aq few years ago.
zydek is a catholic.. the author is neither a bible student or a jehovah's witness.
blondie said:
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/treatises/1906cr.htm
I personally see nothing at wrong about Brother Cole's discussion of his own colporteur work, nor his suggestions for others. There were many different Christian publishing houses that used the Colporteur method of distributing literature.
I do see many things wrong with the statements in red that misrepresent what Brother Cole said. For instance:
A certain set of rules or principles are always carried out in every sale of books, whether we realize it at the time or not. My thought in presenting the work is to bring up thoughts in their minds and I usually do it by suggesting two questions, arousing their curiosity, but leaving the questions unanswered. I suggest the question as to why God permits evil, after explaining it some, and say, you know this is a large subject and you would not expect me to tell all about it, and I would only make a botch of it in comparison with this book. The thought is to magnify the question, as Jesus magnified the law. Everyone knows that evil is in the world. Build on that thought as much as possible. God has power to prevent such things and why is it that he does not? Make that point just as clear and strong as possible. The other question is in regard to God’s provision for the heathen.
Well nothing like calling your "audience" a heathen. So even at this time, way before Rutherford showed up, there is a clear "us vs. them" thinking
Brother Cole said nothing about at about calling his audience "heathen." Nor was he giving "us vs. them" thoughts.
The response in red simply shows ignorance of God's provision for the heathen, that which Brother Cole was actually talking about, and turns what he said around to make appear to mean something than Brother Cole actually meant. Any Bible Student who is familiar with the Studies in the Scriptures would know instantly what Brother Cole meant when he said: "The other question is in regard to God's provision for the heathen"; Brother Cole was talking about the foretold blessings of all the heathen through the seed of Abraham that is shown from the Scriptures in the Studies series:
http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0073.htm
http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0075.htm
http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0076.htm
and other studies.
The suggestions of Brother Cole are not that much different from colporteur suggestions provided by other Christian publishing houses. Years ago I signed up as colporteur for one of the traditional Christian publishing houses (I think is was one of the publishing houses that had the name Moody in it, but I cannot remember for sure) as they had a few books that I wanted to add to the books I was offering door to door. It appears that most the publishing houses that used to offer a colporteur arrangement no longer do so. Anyway, I do remember I got a set of instructions in a booklet or some kind of pamphlet telling of how to go about selling the books in homes, etc., although I do not remember now exactly what those instructions were. I can remember I distributed some publications printed by Zondervan, but I am almost certain that this was not the company I signed up with.
Regarding colporteur work others than the Watch Tower, one might click here.
Nevertheless, neither Brother Cole nor Brother Russell were laying down "rules" to be followed; Brother Russell spoke of his suggestions as "advice." Nor was Brother Russell's spur of the moment response in which he made allowance for not revealing that the Studies in the Scriptures are the "Millennial Dawn" (due to prejudice against the "Millennial Dawn") the same as saying that it was okay for colporteurs to lie.
I have saved the whole page, and may, Yahweh willing, return to it later (if not here, possibly on the Restoration Light website), to address all the points brought up.
charles taze russell: his life and times: the man, the millennium and the message by fredrick zydek is the latest biography on pastor russell, and i must say i am very impressed.
i have read other historiees on the pastor russell by zydek (all unpublished manuscripts) but this one is far better than the last one authored by charles redeker aq few years ago.
zydek is a catholic.. the author is neither a bible student or a jehovah's witness.
Lady Lee said:
I used to think Russell was just a misguided soul until I read his instructions to colporteurs to lie to people so they could sell more books. That was the clincher for me.
Lady Lee, I would like to know where you read these instructions in which he is supposed to have told colporteurs to lie to people. What was the "lie" they were supposed to tell the people? Where may I read these alleged instructions of Russell to coloporteurs to lie to people?
from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .
article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.
13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.
I wish to first state that I personally believe that when Jesus said "this generation [genea]" relating to the end of the age, he was referring to the corrupt Adamic generation that Paul spoke of in Philippians 2:15 :, "a crooked and perverse generation [genea]." (World English) While the word "generation" can mean different things, as related to "the end of the age," there are two generations: the generation through Adam, and the generation -- the new creation -- through Jesus. In speaking of this generation as passing away [Parerchomai], Jesus uses the same expression as he used when speaking of the present heavens and earth passing away. ( Matthew 5:18 ; Mark 13:31 ) Hebrews 2:10 speaks of the foundation of this heavens and earth as being laid down by Jesus, referring to the time of the creation of world of mankind, thus of the time spoken of in the six days of creation. ( John 1:10 ) John uses a similar word in 1 John 2:17 , where he speaks of the world passing away. Peter uses the same expression as Jesus in speaking of the present heavens as passing away, although he is referring to 'heavens' as having existed from the flood of Noah's day, not as from the original creation. ( 2 Peter 3:10 ) However, Peter earlier speaks of the corruption that is in the world (kosmos) through lust (elevated desire). That corruption that is in the world (kosmos) came through the sin of Adam and Eve: Eve's desire for knowledge and to become like God, and Adam's desire to please his wife rather than his Creator. Paul uses the word kosmos, saying that sin entered into the world (kosmos) through one man. ( Romans 5:12-19 ) And Paul refers to this creation as the "whole creation" or "all creation" that has been subjected to vanity and that is in bondage to corruption. ( Romans 8:20-22 ) Thus, it is this creation through Adam, this generation through Adam, this corrupt world/creation through Adam, this heavens and earth that "shall perish" ( Hebrews 1:11 ), but shall not pass away until all thing are fulfilled. In becoming free from the bondage of corruption, the old passes away, and the present creation is changed into a new creation, even as the believer in this age becomes reckoned as a new creation before the passing away of the world in general. -- 2 Corinthians 5:17 ; Hebrews 1:12 ; Revelation 21:1-5 .
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/genea.html
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/kosmos.htm
shamus100 wrote:
Remember, these are the same people that brought you miracle wheat and dates from all over the place all phophesyed from a drunk. And of course they gobble it up - we are talking about dubs, people. They don't want to know the truth because 'the truth' is all they have.
The above is somewhat misleading. There have been several varieties of "miracle wheat." The first I know that was named "miracle wheat" was that of a farmer by the name of Kent B. Stoner, of Fincastle, Virginia. His variety of "miracle wheat" failed in time because farmers failed to keep the strain pure. A few decades later, a new variety of "miracle wheat" was produced by a man by the name of Norman Borlaug . Neither of these men were associated with the Watch Tower. Some Bible Students sold some of Stoner's variety at a price cheaper than Mr. Stoner had been selling it, for which the editor of the The Daily Brooklyn Eagle claimed to Russell to be a fraud, resulting in Russell's suit for libel, which suit he lost because of failure to prove intent on the part of The Eagle.
http://ctr.reslight.net/category/miracle-wheat
http://www.agbioworld.org/biotech-info/topics/borlaug/special.html
Russell, from the very start, disclaimed being a prophet, or that his studies should be considered prophecy. While there are rumors that Rutherford was an alchoholic (I don't know what to believe concerning this), Russell certainly was not an alchoholic.
most of us know about the millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end.
question: was there any link between them and the founder of the watchtower society?.
i will quote below the first reference of miller to illustrate that russell's feelings for miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving.
Just my humble opinion, of course, but it's not a great stretch that Russell was regarding Miller as the Father of the Russellites -- the Father of the Bible Students -- and, yes, the Father of what would become the group known as Jehovah's Witnesses .
In 1883, there was no dinstinct Bible Students movement; I highly doubt that when Sunderlin wrote of "Father Miller" that he had in mind designating William Miller as the father of group that at that time had no distinction as such. There is certainly no indication that Sunderlin thought he was saying that Miller was the Father of the Watch Tower magazine. On one occassion, Sunderlin put "Father Miller" in quotes, as though designating this as a title that had been in common use; I have to agree with RR. However, I do so (and I trust the same is true of RR) without the idea of lending any support to the JW organization. The evidence that the title "Father Miller" was in common use in the second advent movement even before Russell started the Watch Tower magazine is overwhelming.
http://tinyurl.com/yl7vmhr
(Google search)
I realize that many are tyring to discredit the JWs' organization by pointing to what Russell wrote and comparing it with the JWs views. However, Russell was never associated with, and did not believe in, such an organization as the "Jehovah's Witnesses." What Russell believed and taught in many areas was the very opposite of what the JWs teach today. I believe that is good for one to point out the differences, but sometimes if one is looking at Russell through the tint of that organization, one may reach wrong conclusions, since Russell never advocated an organization such the "Jehovah's Witnesses". By about 1930, the majority of the earlier Bible Students movement had rejected Rutherford's new organization; thus, one could say that as a whole, the earlier Bible Students movement continued to exist separate from Rutherford's new organization, leading Rutherford to name his organization "Jehovah's Witnesses" so as to distinguish his organization from the Bible Students movement.
Russell, of course, viewed William Miller as a brother in Christ, and so do I; I would suppose that most in the Bible Students movement today would likewise think of Miller as a brother in Christ. However, I do agree that most Jehovah's Witnesses would probably never think of Miller as a brother in Christ.
