Posts by reslight2

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

AndDontCallMeShirley stated:
You really need to check your facts before commenting. The change in thought from 1902 to 1915 edition of "The Time Is At Hand" is accurate. Your speculations include a lot of "if", "may", "evidently", "would appear", "we highly doubt", "somehow", "I do not know", etc. Speculations and opinion on your part do not equate to fact.

Actually, it is simply historic fact that the change on page 99 of The Time is At Hand can be found before 1914, as early as the 1911 edition. It is also a matter historic fact that Russell did indeed change his view concerning the time of trouble in 1904, ten years before 1914. I am not sure what is meant by "from 1902 to 1915 edition", not unless this meant to say that there was no change until the 1915 edition? If so, that is false.

Since Russell died in 1916, not 1914 as you erroneously assert, then your speculations that WT writings were changed posthumously are unfounded.

Obviously, I made a typo in typing 1914, rather than 1916. It does not change the fact that Russell did indeed die in 1916, still holding to belief that the Gentile Times had ended in 1914. He never ever once spoke of the Gentile Times as ending in 1915, except when he presented the idea that some of the Bible Students thought that the Gentile Times should end in October of 1915, not October of 1914, which thought he rejected. However, that consideration was several years before 1914, not after 1914. I am not sure what is meant by "my speculations that WT writings were changed posthumouly". I did present one of Johnson's edits, which, as I said, does accurately reflect what Russell was teaching in 1911. No speculation here; simply a statement of fact.

Since Russell was the final authority as to WT content, and was the author of most of the articles, it is unreasonable to conclude he had no idea the changes were made without his knowledge.

Russell was not God; he was not all-knowing, nor did he personally supervise absolutely everything that was going on.

As I said, however, the change that appears in the 1911 edition contradicts not only the context, but also what Russell was stating in the pages of the Watch Tower and elsewhere. That is simply fact; not at all speculation. The speculation comes in as to who made the change in 1911 and why. Nevertheless, the fact is that the change on page 99 was made several years before 1914, and NOT AFTER 1914, which is also simply fact, not at all speculation.

The paper trail left in WT publications is beyond dispute that major revisions were made both while Russell was alive and after his death as to what WT was expecting Re: 1914.

I have no dispute with this statement as it stands; it is exactly what I have stated here, on my websites and elsewhere.

http://www.rlbible.com/ctr/?p=692

Christian love,
Ronald

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

In Russell's time, they thought they were living in terrible times and the world couldn't possibly survive beyond 1914. So their interpretation of "an unequaled period of trouble" beginning in 1914 would mean the rapture of WT Bible Students and global mass murder among humankind.

Russell, in his earier years, used the word "rapture" at least once in reference to the change of the saints. After he began publishing the Watch Tower magazine, he never used the word "rapture" when speaking of the change of the saints to spirit bodies. I can only assume that since his earlier reference to "rapture" was misunderstood as accepting the Catholic "rapture" view held by many churches, that he felt it better not use that word. At any rate, Russell believed that the first resurrection began in 1878, and since then, each of the joint-heirs who died would be instantly changed to spirit beings.

The thought under speculation was when would last of the 144,000 be changed? Russell several times stated that he did not know when such would take place, but several dates were considered (before 1914), including 1910, 1911, 1914, 1915 (Edgar's parallels), and 1920 (Lee's parallels). I wish emphasize, however, that all of these dates were being discussed BEFORE 1914. 1914 was just one date; many of the Bible Students were putting a lot emphasis on being changed in October of 1914, but before 1914 had arrived Russell cautioned that there was no direct statement of prophecy that shows this, and thus, since it is matter of speculation, he cautioned on being "consecrated" to a date.

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

*: "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

* note change in the 1915 edition below when 1914 failed

1915: "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 99)

The "change" spoke of above evidently actually took place in 1911 edition, not the 1915 edition as being reported above. In other words, this change was not made in 1915 (or 1916), as stated above; this change appeared in the Volume II as early as 1911. I have found no report, however, of such an change being made in the pages of the Watch Tower, and, thus, it has been speculated that the change may have been made without Russell’s authorization.

Indeed, the change to 1914 to 1915 in the context does not really make sense, although taken out of context, one could conclude that Russell may have changed this to correspond with John Edgar’s thought that the time of trouble was to end in 1915; that is, Edgard suggested that the the “time of trouble” was to last for one year, from October of 1914 to October of 1915. Russell, however, although he presented Edgar’s, as well as U. G. Lee’s, conclusions in the pages of the Watch Tower in 1905, did not fully adopt either of these conclusions. He maintained that we do not know how long the time of trouble was to last, although he stated that it probably would not last for more than a year.

See:

Beginning of the Time of Trouble – Quotes From Russell

At any rate, whoever made the change may have thought it would reflect Edgar’s view that the time of trouble was to end in 1915, a view that many Bible Students, long before 1914, held in high regard.

in context, it would appear that the 1911 edition would, by this one sentence, have the Times of the Gentiles to end in 1915, which, however, from the context, we know that this was not what is meant. If Russell authorized this change, he evidently did so with Edgar’s parallel in mind, which seemed to indicate that the time of trouble was to begin in around October of 1914 and end around October of 1915. We highly doubt that Russell would have authorized such a change that would be so much out of context, however.

We will also note that this sentence in the LHMM edition of 1937 reads:

In view of this strong evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the overthrow of the kingdoms of this world begin in 1914, preparatory to the establishment of the Kingdom of God.

This latter edition actually more accurately reflects Russell’s view that he adopted in 1904, ten years before 1914. P. S. L. Johnson, who edited the LHMM edition of the Studies, had worked closely with Russell as Russell’s personal secretary.

Nevertheless, I do not know for a certainty as to why such a change was made in the way that it was made in the 1911 edition. I can only state that the LHMM edition actually is more correct in expressing the view that Russell adopted in the year 1904, ten years before 1914. It may have been that when changes were made that someone somehow, either by accident, or on purpose, also changed the wording on page 99 from 1914 to 1915. I do know, however, that it was not Russell’s thought that the end of the Gentiles should be changed to one year later. His overwhelming testimony throughout the pages of Watch Tower attest to this. Indeed, his writings show that he died in 1914 still holding to the belief that the Gentile Times had ended in 1914 (not 1915).

John 14:6 World English:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me.” — Not by means of Russell, nor of an organization, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

Many world leaders and military officers anticipated a major war starting in Europe prior to 1914. It was a matter of "when", not "if" it would happen.

I am not sure what this is based on. I learned in college that in 1913, the general consensus of most people was that there was NOT going to be any more wars. ""In 1913 many believed that there would be no more war in Europe. The great powers of the continent were so closely inter-twined economically that the view was widespread that they could no longer have military confrontations." -- Jean Claude Juncker, prime minister of Luxembourg.
http://gagadaily.com/index.php?showtopic=43585

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

alanv stated:

The point is Russell and his cronies felt this was the time of trouble that would lead to Armaggeddon. It did not. It had nothing to do with God taking action against the nations. It just turned out to be an extra large war. If it had been God's war, all nations would have ended in destruction, as it was, many nations were not part of the world war, and most of them lived to fight another day. This was not what Russell expected and spoke of at all.

Actually, Russell was not expecting the kind of Armageddon that the JWs preach at all; to him, Armageddon was a period of time in which several things were to take place; the final phase being the full destruction of Gentile Kingdoms and the abyssing of Satan. Russell, however, separated the destruction of the kingdoms from the people who were part of those kingdoms; he believed that Armageddon was to chastise the people, preparing them for the blessings of God's Kingdom that was to follow. He was not expecting what the JWs believe, that, all of a sudden, millions of people who are without Christ would be eternally destroyed.

World War I apparently was only one spasm of Armageddon; the spasms of trouble continue until mankind has learned the lesson of sin and the vanity that results from sin. -- Psalm 107:23-30; Ecclesiastes 1:2,13-18; 8:19-22.

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

Sorry... I have to disagree. I initially thought the same thing, but had to dig a little and found that The Bible Examiner of 1876 had an article entitled "Gentile Times: When Do They End" that does say the things the article here claims.
http://ia600307.us.archive.org/27/items/1876BibleExaminer/1876_Bible_Examiner_Russell.pdf

This article was written in 1876; it was in that same year that Russell accepted Barbour's conclusion that Jesus had returned in 1874, that the time of trouble had already begun since 1874, and that the Gentile Times would end in 1914. The article mentions the time of trouble, but, evidently Russell did not wish to go into the details at that time. In the book, The Three Worlds, it was clearly stated that the time of trouble had already begun in 1874, and that it was to end in 1914. A few years later, Russell rejected the idea that time of trouble had begun in 1874, but still believed that it would begin some time before 1914 and end in 1914. In 1904, Russell rejected the idea that time of trouble was to end in 1914, and accept the idea that the time of trouble was to begin in 1914, and end sometime after 1914.

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

"Decades before 1914, Jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble." -- 2/15/13 Study Edition

This statement is misleading in that it was not "decades" before that Russell considered that the end of the Gentile Times would bring the time of trouble -- Russell himself did not accept this idea until 1904, just one decade before 1914 had come. Neverthleless, there may have been some others who held to such expectation before 1904.

78

Another Lie/Revisionist History in todays WT study!!

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i caught yet another revisionist history deception in todays wt lesson.. .

here is a quote from paragraph 4 of the 2/15/13 study edition.

"decades before 1914, jehovah's worshippers declared to the nations that the end of "the appointed times of the nations" would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.".

reslight2

BU2B stated:

This is a lie because the WT actually said this at the time!
July 15, 1894 WT states,

First, the WT of that time did not speak for any organization such as the "Jehovah's Witnesses" org. There was no "Jehovah's visible organization" dogma amongst the Bible Students at that time, and everything that Russell stated, especially regard non-essentials such as chronology and time prophecy, was, as he said, his 'own surmissings'. Russell did not believe in any "outward organization" such as that which Rutherford later developed.

http://www.rlbible.com/ctr/?page_id=2084

Second, the statement from the July 15, 1894 WT reflects Russell's thoughts before 1904; at that time he had accepted Barbour's conclusion that the end of the Gentile Times would also see the end of the of the time of trouble. There were evidently some amongst the Bible Students who believed that the end of the time of the Gentile Times would see the beginning, not the end, of the time of trouble.

In 1904, however, Russell did adopt the view that the end of the Gentile Times would see, not the end, but the beginning of the Time of Trouble. Thus, from 1904 to 1914 Russell made many statements to that effect. To the extent that any of the Bible Students agreed with Russell on this, one could say that "they" were indeed declaring that the Gentile Times would end in 1914, at which time they were expecting a time of trouble to come upon the world. Some of the Bible Students, based on Edgar's parallels, thought that time of trouble (Armageddon) would only last for one year, and thus that it would end in 1915; some believed it would last much longer, and various dates were given. Russell presented a lot of differing views in the pages of the WT between 1904 to 1914, and even after 1914. His statement was that 1914 was the last date that could be identified by actual time prophecies; all other dates were dependent on parallels. Russell died in 1916, still believing that the "time of trouble" (Armageddon) had begun in 1916.

http://www.rlbible.com/ctr/?p=1301

I am not with the JWs, but I, and many other Bible Students, do believe that the "last days" began in 1799, and that time of trouble upon the world began in 1914. As in Russell's day, however, there are varying opinions on this amongst the Bible Students, especially as related to chronology and time prophecies.

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/bsllinks/Doctrine.htm

Christian love,

Ronald

17

End of world predictions/ JW's

by exwhyzee in

i thought this was an interesting site that discusses end of world predictions.

http://www.humanreligions.info/the_end_of_the_world.html.

there are additional links at the end of this page.

reslight2

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

Failed End of the World Predictions for 1914 to 1920 made by the Jehovah's Witnesses,

Before 1914, there was no "Jehovah's Witnesses" organization, and thus there were no "Jehovah's Witnesses" making any predictions; the vast majority of the "Bible Students" in 1914 never became "Jehovah's Witnesses" and never became members of the JW organization.

http://www.rlbible.com/?p=488

However, as far as I know, none of the Bible Students associated with Charles Taze Russell were expecting the "end of the world" in 1914. Most of them were expecting the "time of trouble" to begin in 1914, and that some time after that, the blessing of the nations would begin.

17

End of world predictions/ JW's

by exwhyzee in

i thought this was an interesting site that discusses end of world predictions.

http://www.humanreligions.info/the_end_of_the_world.html.

there are additional links at the end of this page.

reslight2

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

To the great disappointment of the Russellites, 1914 ushered in nothing more dramatic than the World War, and the sect lost thousands of members.

Actually, the Bible Students, although many were disappointed that they had not been changed to spiritual glory in 1914, were rejoicing that the expected time of trouble had begun in 1914, and admidst this the reports of that time show that several thousand joined themselves to the association f Bible Students.

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

New editions of Russell's Pyramid study were issues with the wording altered at crucial spots to make the errors less obvious. Thus, a 1910 edition had read, '... The deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914....' (p. 228) But in 1923, this sentence read, '... the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914....'

The above was changed in the year 1915, not 1923; nevertheless, Russell had stated this -- that the completion of the change of the saints may not be completed until sometime after 1914 -- to be a possibility several times long before 1914. Indeed, since Russell, from 1904 onward, was no longer to expecting the time of trouble to end in 1914, but rather that it was to begin in 1914, the logical conclusion that would conform to this would be that the first resurrection would continue for sometime after 1914. The restatement authorized in 1915 edition, however, was made simply to conform to the facts. Russell in no way sought to hide these changes, since he publicly printed the "changes" in the Watch Tower magazine, which is still made available to all on many sites on the internet.

http://www.rlbible.com/ctr/?p=692

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

Judge J. F. Rutherford, who succeeded Russell after the pastor died in 1916, eventually discarded Pyramidology entirely. Writing in the November 15 and December 1, 1928, issues ofThe Watch Tower and Herald, Rutherford releases a double-barrelled blast against it [...]

Rutherford, by the manner in which presented the matter, in effect, attributed Satan with having knowledge of the Bible long before most of the Bible had been written.

See Morton Edgar's remarks concerning this:
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/treatises/edgar%20gp%20discourse.htm

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

The Judge did not remind his readers in these articles that he, too, had been guilty of a prophetic error. For many years he had taught that 1925 would mark the beginning of the great jubilee year.

The year 1925 had been discussed by Russell several times before he died. Russsell himself consistently stated that he saw so significance in the date, although some of his associates seemed to believe that 1925 would see the the end of the first resurrection.

exwhyzee posted 3/28/2013

Alas, it also had passed, without perceptible upheavals. The sect now discourages the sale and reading of Russell's writing, and although members still believe the Millennium is about to dawn, no definite dates are set.”

Rutherford caused a show-down in the mid 1920s over the "Jehovah's organization" dogma. As a result, during the years 1925 to 1928, more than 75% of the Bible Students openly rejected Rutherford's "Jehovah's visible organization" dogma, by which dogma Rutherford claimed authority over all the Bible Student congregations. The Bible Student movement still exists today, totally separate from the JW organization that Rutherford created.

http://www.rlbible.com/?page_id=500

Bible Students today, as in Russell's day, do not all agree with Russell that the Millennium began in 1874. Russell, unlike Rutherford, never sought to take authority over the Bible Students so as to dictate that all had to agree with him.