When I posted my last post, I was thinking I had not posted to this thread before. I see now that I have.
reslight2
JoinedPosts by reslight2
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Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
vienne
Pyramidology did not come from Masonic belief but from two British writers. The one most influential on Russell was Charles Piazzi Smyth. Russell circulated for a brief while a pyramidology book by J. A. Seiss, an American Lutheran pastor. There is nothing in Russell's theology that parallels Masonic belief or practice.
I am a Bible Student; I am not affiliated with the JWs, but I have been studying the writings of Bible Students for more than 50 years, including that of Russell. I am hoping to make a few statements regarding some of the things posted.
Yes, Russell's study of God's Witness in Egypt has nothing at all to do with the Masons. In my discussions with some of the Masons, none of them I have conversed with has any knowledge of God's Witness in Egypt. Indeed, although there might be a some Masons who are Christians who may have taken some interest in the study of God's Witness in Egypt, it does not appear to something generally studied among the Masons. Furthermore, since not all Masons profess to be Christian, it could not be applied universally to the Masons. Nor have a found such an general interest in the study of God's Witness in Egypt among the Knight Templar, although, again, various individual members of Knights Templar may have some interest in such a study. If, however, a Mason were to take a serious interrest in Russell's study of God's Witness in Egypt, it would lead one to the conclusion that being a member of the Masons is actually vanity.
Most of what Russell presented about God's Witness in Egypt came from Nelson Barbour.
Russell never used the word "pyramidology", and as best as I can tell neither did Nelson Barbour. I believe Piazzi Smyth used that word once or twice. The word simply means "pyramid study" or "study of pyramids". As the word was originally used, it did not mean what it is often attributed to that word today: spiritism, pyramid power, etc. Russell did not believe in "pyramid power", spiritism, astrology, etc.
Much of my research related to Russell and the Freemasons may be found at:
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Finkelstein stated:
<<So what we have then is strange coincidence of Russell's and others adherence to Pyramidology>>
I am not sure what is meant by "adherence to Pyramidology". My concern is that this terminology would create an idea in many reader's minds that would not actually match the reality. Russell never spoke of "Pyramidology" or of any adherence to such. The word "pyramidology" today, however, is often used to describe many beliefs and practices that Russell rejected, yet I have seen many anti-Russell authors make all kinds of false claims about Russell and "Pyramidology". Russell's Biblical study of God's Witness in Egypt had nothing at all to do with any kind of practice of astrology, spiritism, pyramid power, heathen occult rituals, etc.
Additionally, Russell presented his study on the Great Pyramid, not as being dogma, but rather as his own conclusions. Unlike Rutherford, Russell never claimed any authority to demand that anyone had to accept his conclusions in order to be a Christian, or fellowship with the Bible Students, etc.
Finkelstein stated:
<<and the Freemason's adherence to the Great Pyramid in Egypt and their identity as Stonemason builders, simple coincidence ?>>
So far what I have actually found regarding the Masons and Great Pyramid is scattered individual opinions that offer very little similarity to what Russell taught and believed about the Great Pyramid.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Crazyguy stated:
<<Wouldn't the pyramid and all the symbols on his grave site as well as him being buried at a Masonic site be a good indication that he was a Mason?>>
The symbols on Russell's grave show that he believed in the harvest that Jesus spoke of.
The symbols on Rutherford's pyramid monument are Biblical symbolism and references to the Bible, including the monument itself.
Russell was not buried at a Masonic site.
There is nothing about Russell's burial site that offers any proof at all the Russell was a Mason.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Finkelstein stated:
Knights Templar and Masons borrowed from Christian Symbolism, not the other way around.
Of course that is not of debate, Freemasonry is inherently Judaeo Christian.
<<The debate is about from where and from whom did Russell derive "SOME" of his theological ideas or borrowed symbolism.
Seems to be deliberate dismissive about Russell obtaining some theological influence from the Freemason Organization.
Maybe we should adhere to some more intellectual honesty instead biased blindness ?>>
Russell, of course, had no reason to record the lineage of usage of Biblical symbolism he used. The idea that he did not does not give any reason to imagine and assume that he obtained his Biblical symbolism from the Freemason organization. On the other hand, it would really would not make any difference it he did make use of some symbolism as used by the Knights Templar. It actually proves nothing at all.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Finkelstein stated:
<<Likewise did he obtain that Knights Templar image used on the top right corner of Zion's Watchtower from a Baptist Church ? Probably not .>>
The fact is that there is no "Knights Templar image used on the top right corner of" Russell's Watch Tower. One may imagine and assume that it is a Knight's Templar symbol, although in reality, there is absolutely no reason to so imagine and assume.
Finkelstein stated:
<<Let it be understood that Russell may not have been a registered Freemason but he did plagiarize and use wherever he thought that would gravitate public interest and support to this publications, The Watchtower or otherwise. >>
I have no reason at all to think Russell lied when he stated: "I have never been a Mason." (Sermon: The Temple of God)
We have the overwhelming testimony of Russell's lifetime works that provide solid evidence that he definitely was not a Mason. It is totally nonsensical to think that Russell spent almost his entire life, his fortune, every day, day after day, teaching and preaching a message that would actually sabotage what he actually believed in. If his works were printed in regular book size with regular type size, more than like it would take more 100,000 page to print it all. Absolutely all of this word he did testifies that he was not in support of what is often attributed to being Masonic agenda, or Illuminati agenda, etc. Why would a man spend all his hours everyday proclaiming a message that actually would sabotage what people like Fritz Springmeier and David Icke have claimed that he was supporting?
Definitely, Russell did not lie when he said, "I have never been a Mason."
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Finkelstein stated:
>>Russell used Freemason Halls quite frequently as he traveled throughout the US, the IBSA used a Freemason Hall even recently in my home town of Vancouver BC .>>
Russell quite frequently spoke in Oddfellows' rooms, hotel rooms, school rooms, Armory rooms, and rooms owned by Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and many, many other organizations. He often would make use of something taught by various religious organizations to illustrate something in the Bible. The fact that he spoke in such places does not at all mean that he was condoning the beliefs or practices of the owners of any of these places. It definitely does not mean that he was a member of any of these organizations.
Finkelstein stated:
<<There is little doubt that Russell plagiarized some symbols from his association with the Freemasons.>>
There is no doubt at all that he, like many Christians before him, made use of Biblical symbolism. I have no reason to think that he took the Biblical symbolism he used from the Freemasons. The Knights Templar, professing to be Christian, actually took their symbolism from Christians who had been using such symbolism. Any usage of such Biblical symbolism by the Knights Templar or by Masons who profess to be Christian does not give reason to imagine and assume that such symbolism is exclusive to the Masons, making such symbolism exclusively "Masonic" or "Knights Templar" symbolism.
For some links to some of my research on this, one may see:
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Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
wozza stated:
<<For me the fact that Russel started a religion from others thoughts and writings and populist thinking makes him someone who was'nt unique then.... He successfully started a crooked american religion that we got sucked into and I'm so thankful that years ago I found this site (thanks Simon) and traced it,s history on the major points ,the small details don't matter .>>
Russell did not start a religion; he did start his magazine and he started a legal entity. After Russell died, Rutherford virtually destroyed the Watch Tower as Russell created by having new by-laws passed. The voters were not permitted to even read these by-laws, but they voted to passed them based simply on their trust that Rutherford was doing the right thing.
Russell, however, did not believe in starting any religion, and he certainly did not start the Jehovah's witnesses religion. After Russell died, Rutherford created the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, styled after the Catholic hierachy. Russell actually preached against such authority and he preached against the message of the organization.
Russell's desire to stay by the Bible in what he taught, however, led him to reject the popular teachings of his day.
wozza stated:
<<Whether he was a Mason does'nt matter to me to prove he was not from god ,he finished his days and is rotting in the ground with borrowed symbols for a tombstone.>>
Russell was definitely not a freemaon -- his whole life work overwhelming proves that he was a Mason, and definitely not in harmony with imperfect sinful taking over the world; Russell preached that the Bible was from God. The Biblical symbolism that is on his tombstone is indeed borrowed from the Bible.
One can see pictures of Russell's orginal gravestone (which was more in harmony with his last will and testament) and the tombstone as it is now.
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2016/11/grave.html
As pointed out on the page linked to above, however, many confuse Rutherford's later monument replica of God's Witness as being Russell's tombstone, while it is not. Nevertheless, the Biblical symbolism on that monument is also borrowed from the Bible.
I personally will be eternally thankful to God for the work Russell did, especially regarding the ransom as shown in the Bible which reveals the only reasonable explanation I have found for why God is allowing all the present suffering of mankind. It is sad that Rutherford rejected that message and replaced it with his own message that basically states, "Join my organization or be eternally destroyed in Armageddon." Rutherford's new alleged "good news" of woe that will be for most of the people was almost the very opposite of the glad tidings of great joy that will be for all the people that Russell spent his life proclaiming and defending.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Truthseeker stated:
<<Please tell me me the significance of Russell wrapping himself in a Roman toga the night he died on a train on Halloween. I heard about this from the esoteric researcher Jordan Maxwell.>>
If Russell asked for a Roman toga, I highly doubt that he did so because of any religious significance. Stugeon stated that he could not understand what Russell was saying; he reported that Russell was finding difficulty in finding some way to stay warm. More than likely, whatever Russell asked for was simply due to a desire to comfortably warm.
Russell did not die on Halloween, but he died before Halloween began. Of course, unless one believes that everyone who dies on Halloween is somehow in cohoots with the devil, it really makes no difference.
One may also see my thoughts at:
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2017/03/toga.html
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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reslight2
Finkelstein stated:
<<The great Egyptian pyramid is entwined in Freemason practice, you have to be an idiot to not accept that. >>
<<This so called monument in stone as its perceived was deeply rooted in Freemason theology.>>
I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but as a Bible student who believe that the Great Pyramid in Egypt is God's Witness in Egypt, I am responding related to what is being said concerning Charles Taze Russell. Russell was a Bible student; he was never a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that authoritarian organization did not exist while Russell was alive. Russell refused such authority of dogmatism for himself, and he kept the Watch Tower Society he created from being used for such authority as long as he lived. Contrary to what many have claimed, while Russell was alive, he sought to prevent the WTs and the Bible Students association from becoming an "religious organization". Shortly after his death, the WTS as Russell created it was destroyed when Rutherford deceitfully had new by-laws passed. Rutherford then began to use his new WTS as a basis to create what he later called "Jehovah's visible organization", and, in practice (although not necessarily in word), claimed authority of dogmatism on practically everything the new WTS said.
For some quotes from Russell regarding "organization" and the WTS:
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2016/10/wtorg.html
I asked regarding how Freemasons view the Great Pyramid in several "freemasons" forums. Those that responded said that they knew of no general interest among the Freemasons in the Great Pyramid of Egypt, although there may be a few members of the Masons who have taken an interest in such a study.
Knowing what I know about of what Russell presented from the scriptures, however, I would say that IF a Mason did study Russell's works on this and related studies, he would soon realize that the Freemasons is an organization that in the final end would be shown to have been a work of futility. Additionally, if the many conspiracy theories related to the Freemasons are true, then any Freemason who would be in agreement with Russell's Biblical study of God's Witness in Egypt would realize the futility of such a conspiracy by sinful men, and would withdraw support from such conspiracy.
Of course, God's Witness in Egypt is not at all itself intertwined with Masonic practices, although some Masons may have intertwined some things about the Great Pyramid into their "practice" or beliefs. When the Great Pyramid was constructed, however, the Freemasons' organization did not exist, thus the alleged connection with the Freemasons has to be imagined and assumed. Nevertheless, if any usage of the Great Pyramid by Masons means that the God's Witness in Egypt is itself Masonic, then, if one is consistent in such reasoning, the intertwining of the Bible into any Masonic teaching would mean that the Bible itself is a Masonic book. The reality is that neither is true, and the further reality is that Brother Russell's Biblical study of God's witness in Egypt -- as well as similar study done by others -- has, of itself, nothing to do with some "practice" or Masonic teachings, although, as I stated, some Masons may have endeavored similar study.
Finkelstein stated:
<<Because of Russell's association with the Freemasons, he drew out and plagiarized some of this organization's theological ideas.>>
Russell did state he had "some dear friends" who admitted to him to be Freemasons. There may have been a very, very few associated with the Bible Students who had not withdrawn from the Freemasons whom Russell knew. Russell never assumed any authority to tell anyone that they had to withdraw from the Masons, or to pronounce a judgment against anyone for not withdrawing from the Masons, although he did present the scriptural reasons he believed that indicate that a Christian should not be a member of such an organization. Generally, however, if a Christian accepted the divine plan of the ages as presented from the Bible by Russell, that one would soon realize the vanity and distraction of being a member of such an organization, and would withdraw from such an organization.
Russell did endeavor to draw some illustrations from Masonic terminology that could provide illustration of some Biblcal teachings, but he did this with terminology that is associated with many different groups and organizations -- not just the Masons. Such usage does not all mean, however, that Brother Russell was endorsing the views of any of these organizations; indeed, he often showed that he was not.
However, as it was pointed out to me, much of what Russell spoke of concerning the Freemasons showed his ignorance of that organization. He apparently assumed that all Freemasons profess to be Christian, and assumed that the Knights Templar are simply a higher level of the general Freemason Society. Due to this misconception he lumped the Freemasons with the various denominations that profess to be Christian, saying that each present some truths. -- Temple of God.
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2016/11/temple.html
Nevertheless, in most places one has to profess belief in the orthodox alleged "Chirstian" trinity in order to a member of the Knights Templar, and Russell, believing that this doctrine contradicts the Bible, openly confessed that he could not accept adding that dogma to the Bible.
Finkelstein stated:
<<The Winged Sun Goddess symbol which he used on the front cover of the The Finished Mystery.>>
"The Finished Mystery" was not written by Russell, but I don't want to get sidetracked with that right now.
The "sun of righteousness" symbol that Russell used is definitely not a symbol of any "winged sun goddess", although the Egyptians did make use of a similar symbol. Fritz Springemeier never made the distinction between the "sun of righteousness" symbol and that used in heathen religions. Indeed, he highly misrepresented Russell's symbol, and he misrepresented Russell's Biblical usage of the sun as a symbol. Nevertheless, his lack of distinction led him to the conclusion that Malachi had been influenced by the heathen religion, which meant that Malachi lied when he said Jehovah spoke of the "sun of righteousness." (Malachi 4:2) That would mean that Malachi was a false prophet. (Deuteronomy 18:20) In turn, since the New Testament writers accepted Malachi as a prophet, it would mean that the entire New Testament is false, and it would further mean that Jesus is not the promised Messiah, but a false prophet. Of course, I don't for a moment believe that Malachi lied, and I do believe that Jehovah did speak of the "sun of righteousness", who is contrast to the sun of crookedness (unjustness, unrightousness) and vanity that we now live under, but which is to pass away. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2,3,14,15; Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:12,13.
For links to some of my research related to Russell and Masonic Symbols, one may see:
http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2016/12/masonicsymb.html
<<
It is true that Charles Smthe heavily promoted this concept and he wrote a book which no doubt got into Russell's hands among other late 19th century bible investigators in the US.>>
Directly, Russell adopted what he presented about God's witness in Egypt from Nelson Barbour. Brother Russell acknowledged the help he and Barbour received from Smythe, as well as from many other Christians who believed that the Great Pyramid is God's witness in Egypt. None of this, however, has anything to do with any alleged practice of the Freemasons.
One of Barbour's articles on the Great Pyramid:
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/barbour%20pyramid.htm