Posts by ILoveTTATT2

332

The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

by slimboyfat in

jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

ILoveTTATT2

I guess in a nutshell you are saying:

If the Witnesses are right about this topic, then God must be giving them their support.

Um... a broken clock is right twice a day. Remember, they mentioned 1914, a huge event happened in 1914, and for many that don't investigate further, that is enough to believe in the Witnesses. But you know better SBF. You know about 1925, 1975, 2000, the generation... etc...

Same thing with this. Maybe... just maybe... Witnesses are right in their "gut feeling" that "Jehovah" was in the original NT.

Proof would only need to be an old enough manuscript of the NT (preferably 3rd century or earlier) with "IAO" or the tetragramaton in Hebrew...

With one manuscript, that would be sufficient to turn all of this from conjecture to a distinct possibility that JW's are completely right about this topic.

But then... to justify all 237 spots, manuscripts with IAO on those spots would have to be found... and that's a tall order...

Or maybe... like almost everything the Witnesses have done, maybe they're right about "Jehovah" being originally in the NT... but every single location where they placed it is wrong...

That would totally crush your hypothesis that they being right about the name being in the NT is proof of their blessing from God. It would be proof again that a broken clock is right twice a day... and they just got lucky.

332

The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

by slimboyfat in

jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

ILoveTTATT2

I wonder if you've read my response to Laika on page 9 on the subject of corruption of the text. One response to a corrupt text is to say it can't be inspired. But another possible possible response is to say that God has restored it in his due time. I'm not making a strong argument for this view. What I'm saying is that it's a possible way of looking at the situation for those who maintain both the divine name and the inspiration of the text.

Hi SBF, yes, I did read it. I dislike it because you are moving the goalposts.

Believers can move the goalposts all they like and it pisses me off. I like to work with what is in evidence, but I will indulge the believer's point of view for a moment.

If the believers' point of view is true, then my response would be "then God is an asshole."

He makes the text, then allows it to be corrupt, then chooses one group out of thousands of others and makes them say false prophecies, and interpret the Bible wrongly regarding blood, needlessly shortening thousands of people's lives... BUT... BUT He makes them pull "Jehovah" out of thin air and place it EXACTLY where it's supposed to go in the NT of the NWT... 237 places. Completely out of thin air, because He allowed all autographs to be lost and EVERY SINGLE COPY SINCE has had "Jehovah" removed and the copies with "Jehovah" have never been found.

And He expects you to believe that this group is the one and true religion, and condemns you to eternal nothingness/horribly painful death because you didn't believe in this one group.

Seriously dude? Seriously?

332

The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

by slimboyfat in

jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

ILoveTTATT2

Another aspect that in 21 pages has been barely considered:

The J versions.

Let's suppose, again, that SBF is correct. The NT originally had a form of the Divine Name in it. There is ONE manuscript found, from the 1st or 2nd century, which has YHWH in Hebrew, or IAO... or something that clearly shows the Divine Name instead of KY...

Ok. Great. This would again imply that the Bible is corrupt in its entirety... For almost 2000 years the text of the NT has been based on a corrupt version where the Divine Name was removed in its entirety.

But there is more. Definitely this manuscript would allow the witnesses to put "Jehovah" ONLY IN THAT SPOT.

Suppose the manuscript found is of Matthew 22:43-44, and it actually reads like the NWT:

(Matthew 22:43, 44) 43 He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’?

Woah. That would be an AMAZING "vindication" of Jehovah's Witnesses. But... like I've said before... it would still keep me an atheist. The rest of the Bible has been shown to have been corrupted. But let's forget about that for a moment.

There would still be 236 places where all other manuscripts found (over 5000) say "Lord" or "God".

...

Now... let's change this scenario up a bit. They find a manuscript from the 3rd century that is from a different part of the NT and it reads like this:

(Acts 9:5) 5 He asked: “Who are you, Lord? And IAO/YHWH said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Now what? Instead of vindicating JW's, it would vindicate all other Christian religions. It would be DIRECT PROOF of the Trinity! (or at least that Jesus is Jehovah).

Well...

This is exactly how one of the J versions reads (J7 to be exact, J7 Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.)

Notice how the Hebrew version has YHWH and the Spanish (and in fact, the other 11 languages) have "Lord" in that verse.

As Paul repeatedly has told you, the presentation of this topic is EXTREMELY DISHONEST in WT literature.

The J versions are in their majority extremely trinitarian. They explicitly and in many places say that YHWH is Jesus.

But the witnesses have used the J versions selectively to end up with a very non-trinitarian Bible that, nonetheless, has "Jehovah" wherever they please. Particularly in places where it would diminish Jesus' divinity.

332

The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

by slimboyfat in

jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

ILoveTTATT2

SBF... cool investigation. But I think you are missing the biggest point of it all. This very topic led me out of the witnesses... and turned me atheist.

Let's say JW's are right in this: The original NT had a form of the Divine Name in it, but later it was removed.

What does that say of the Bible?

Well, it shows that there is absolutely no way that anyone should ever trust the Bible.

Let's say JW's are wrong in this (impossible to do as it stands because it implies denying a negative), the original NT never had any form of the Divine Name in it. The LXX having forms of the Divine Name was just a historical oddity, but all copies past the 3rd century didn't have any form of the Divine Name.

It also shows that there is absolutely no way that anyone should ever trust the Bible.

The evidence you have shown up to this moment is that the early LXX and the late LXX are different in a very important respect: the Divine Name was removed from all copies.

THIS ALONE should be a huge red flag.

The best complete or close to complete copies of the LXX are in the same book as 3 of the best and oldest complete copies of the NT.

The Codex Sinaiticus, the Codex Vaticanus, and the Codex Alexandrinus all contain a copy of the complete Bible in Greek, and are from the 4th/5th centuries...

So they contain a corrupt (according to you) copy of the LXX and a complete copy of the NT.

They were in most likelyhood made by the same people. So if there is a doubt as to the "purity" of 2/3 of the entire text of these Bibles... then why think that the NT text wasn't corrupted in some other way (this applies both to YHWH being there originally or some other way)?

You just threw away the belief in the entire NT, as the Great Uncial Codices (there are 4, but the last one doesn't have the LXX) are our best and earliest copies of the NT.

That's one major point... I will make another in another post.

34

Have a friend who only speaks Spanish and want him/her to learn TTATT? www.verdadtj.com

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

if you have a friend who only speaks spanish, or they speak english but spanish is their preferred language, i am pleased to tell you that there is a spanish translation of jwfacts in progress.

so far, these are the completely translated articles:asociación de la watchtower con las naciones unidas - un ngo associationcelebración de los cumpleaños - birthdayslas transfusiones de sangre - bloodpredicción fallida de 1975 - 1975¿por qué está mal el ser un testigo de jehová?

- what's wrong with being a jw?escándalos de la watchtower - watchtower scandalsexpulsión y rechazo - disfellowshippingfolleto general acerca de la watchtower - pdf - general pdf about wtvideo - crecer como testigo de jehová - growing up a jw¿debería estar jehová en el nuevo testamento?

ILoveTTATT2

Hey Simon,

Please suggest these things to Paul. I am not as technical in building websites as he is.

When you say

Also, consider Markdown for the authoring - requiring the language + technical combination will always limit potential pool of helpers vs using a simpler authoring format (I'm thinking of switching to it for the forum).

Could you explain that a bit more? So there is something that would allow me to just go directly from jwfacts (English) to verdadtj (Spanish) without touching the HTML?

Please let me know what that is, because I currently need to teach people HTML before they can help me... because just translating is still kinda useless for me... since I have to copy-paste copy-paste over and over and over again... huge pain, instead of directly translating in the HTML code.

34

Have a friend who only speaks Spanish and want him/her to learn TTATT? www.verdadtj.com

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

if you have a friend who only speaks spanish, or they speak english but spanish is their preferred language, i am pleased to tell you that there is a spanish translation of jwfacts in progress.

so far, these are the completely translated articles:asociación de la watchtower con las naciones unidas - un ngo associationcelebración de los cumpleaños - birthdayslas transfusiones de sangre - bloodpredicción fallida de 1975 - 1975¿por qué está mal el ser un testigo de jehová?

- what's wrong with being a jw?escándalos de la watchtower - watchtower scandalsexpulsión y rechazo - disfellowshippingfolleto general acerca de la watchtower - pdf - general pdf about wtvideo - crecer como testigo de jehová - growing up a jw¿debería estar jehová en el nuevo testamento?

ILoveTTATT2

New Article:

Higher Education

http://verdadtj.com/atalaya/educacion-superior-universidad.php

31

What in the flying F....????

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

https://www.facebook.com/tupuebloesmipueblojehova/videos/578539175868967/?hc_ref=arrvbqq6myd5outlusr6zufmvffwsvr_duxl_fdriuhhniiuesiylhi43gybtziknxwthis video gave me cancer..

ILoveTTATT2

I fixed it. Much better music now. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rKxfjGgr-M&feature=youtu.be

31

What in the flying F....????

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

https://www.facebook.com/tupuebloesmipueblojehova/videos/578539175868967/?hc_ref=arrvbqq6myd5outlusr6zufmvffwsvr_duxl_fdriuhhniiuesiylhi43gybtziknxwthis video gave me cancer..

ILoveTTATT2

https://www.facebook.com/tupuebloesmipueblojehova/videos/578539175868967/?hc_ref=ARRvBQq6mYD5outluSR6zUfMVFFWsVr_DuXl_fDrIUHHNiiUesIYLhi43GybTZIkNxw

This video gave me cancer.

22

I have a theory related to the cult spectrum

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

translating jwfacts into spanish has made me critically analyze pretty much everything paul has written.

i would say paul is right 90%+ of the time.

some things are just things that are outdated, on other occasions, things are partially right and just need to be tweaked.anyhow... one of the articles is "where else would i go"?since i am an atheist, ideally, for me, the answer would be "become at least agnostic, if not atheist, and lead an evidence-based life".

ILoveTTATT2

Those who separated from Russell early on are not BITE-ers.

Ok, but how would you know if you're going into these groups that they're NOT going to meet the BITE model?

That would be an option if they really weren't BITE-ers as you say.

22

I have a theory related to the cult spectrum

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

translating jwfacts into spanish has made me critically analyze pretty much everything paul has written.

i would say paul is right 90%+ of the time.

some things are just things that are outdated, on other occasions, things are partially right and just need to be tweaked.anyhow... one of the articles is "where else would i go"?since i am an atheist, ideally, for me, the answer would be "become at least agnostic, if not atheist, and lead an evidence-based life".

ILoveTTATT2

Hi, so... coming back to this:

Do you know of any churches that teach non-orthodox christian beliefs, such as no trinity, no hellfire, soul sleep, etc... and which could not be considered cults using the BITE model?

I know of plenty of healthy christian churches that would not be in any way considered cults in the BITE model, but they are orthodox. Examples: a typical catholic church, a liberal, non-fundamentalist baptist church, etc... These teach the existence of God, the Trinity, hell, etc... but are pretty liberal environments...