Posts by Pole

30

WTS hypocrisy? What exactly do you mean?

by Pole in

from what i've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.. a few all-time classics would include:.

1) secret association with the un.

2) 1975 / generation 1914 doctrine changes.

Pole

LL,

Yeah, yeah, I can hear you. I know it's the standard textbook for "apostates".

I'm getting a copy already...

Cheers,

Pole

6

Impermanence: a red herring?

by seattleniceguy in

the wts often talks about how impermanent the things of our world are.

governments change in the course of a few years or centuries, notable people come and go, the world scene constantly changes.

our lifespans are but a tiny blip on the cosmic scale.

Pole

I guess the impermanence argument makes them feel better when they see "worldly ones" enjoying their miserable transient lives. :)

At least, that used to be the case with me.

Subconsciously, they reason: "Ok, we may be doing those boring "theocratic" routines, but what we're getting as a reward is a comsic lifespan - not just temporary hedonist pleasure...

So in this sense it is a red herring indeed. It diverts your attention from the fact that the much ridiculed 70-80 year lifespan (if you're lucky) may as well be all that you ever get

Everything else is just a matter of faith, hope and promise.

Pole

30

WTS hypocrisy? What exactly do you mean?

by Pole in

from what i've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.. a few all-time classics would include:.

1) secret association with the un.

2) 1975 / generation 1914 doctrine changes.

Pole

Lady Lee,

Thank you for being so specific. I haven't read CoC yet, but this is more or less how I imagined what happens if there is serious dissent within the GB.

:: To ensure his silence and that no JW would listen to him they DFed him.

I guess this is one of the main problems of this denomination. "The organization" as it is now is ultimately a totalitarian system in which people don't count at all. They can be your family, but they get shunned if they happen to disagree. And as a family member you have the greatest part in shunning them...

Yep, people don't count in the borg. They can be dfed easily and replaced with new converts. But there is only one "mother organization". It's an unfair test of loyalty.

Ok, I'd better stop here, before I drown in bitterness... :)

Pole

30

WTS hypocrisy? What exactly do you mean?

by Pole in

from what i've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.. a few all-time classics would include:.

1) secret association with the un.

2) 1975 / generation 1914 doctrine changes.

Pole

XQsThaiPoes

I think what happens is like all companies the watchtower comes up with a product line. THe product either does not sell, is not reliable, or is defective. So they can it. Products that are smash hits like the paradise earth are still going strong. Products that were defective have had to be recalled and serviced or replaced. Such as 1914 or devil aluminum. Oh and there is a corilation between anluminum oxide in anti perspirant and cancer of the lymph glands. Apparently by not sweating toxins pool in your under arm area to the point of giving some people cancer.

Even if we accept your "product-line" metaphor - which is one of the many metaphors you could use to describe the workings of the WTS, my question remains valid: what are the motives of the people in charge of designing the "products"? Do they buy the stuff they design? Do they live by the stuff they design? Are they after money, power, or what? CoEs don't plan marketing strategies for the thrill of it. Politicians don't get elected just for fun. What are the motives of the people in charge?

Do you believe they are self-propelling machines, no reflection, no second thought? Please be specific.

I don't think any of it fits them. THe watchtower is different than JWs. For example if you have a child in the circuit work or at bethel they fire you. So how can they have a child molestation policy if they have no children?

I missed your point here it may be a linguistic problem. Could you elaborate on it?

Thanks for the comment anyway.

Pole

30

WTS hypocrisy? What exactly do you mean?

by Pole in

from what i've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.. a few all-time classics would include:.

1) secret association with the un.

2) 1975 / generation 1914 doctrine changes.

Pole

D - All of the Above

All of the above all the time? That would be too much of a sweeping generalization to me....

30

WTS hypocrisy? What exactly do you mean?

by Pole in

from what i've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.. a few all-time classics would include:.

1) secret association with the un.

2) 1975 / generation 1914 doctrine changes.

Pole

From what I've noticed so far, an awful lot of posts on this board deal with Watchtower hypocrisy which has been manifest both in their doctrines and in their double-dealing with many issues.

A few all-time classics would include:

1) Secret association with the UN
2) 1975 / Generation 1914 doctrine changes
3) Child-molesters policy
4) Diluting their stand on accepting blood (too late for those Witnesses who may have benefited from this change)
5) A whole assortment of mind control strategies, shunning,
6) Personal disappointments and mistreatment at the congregation level experienced by so many members of this forum

etc.

Now, a little disclaimer: I'm not trying to defend the Governing Body in any way. In fact I consider the information and the opinions presented here extremely useful in understanding what the WTS really is as a religious organization. I also have this bitterness syndrom resulting from the emotional havoc that many of the WTS doctrines and "theocratic procedures" wrought in my personality before I've managed to get rid of them.

Having said that, I often ask myself the following questions:

1) To what extent are WTS leaders (whoever they may be now) cynical manipulators who are fully aware of their responsibility?

2) Do you really believe that they sometimes get to admit in private that their actions and policies have been erroneous or harmful, but they only do it in order to find an efficient way of keeping up the appearances?

3) Do any of them have seriuos doubts about being "God's channel of communication" and how do they deal with them?

In other words if you were to put the Governing Body on a continuum of hypocrisy that can be applied to many cults or totalitarian organizations or even entire states how would you describe them?

A

Totally delusional and paranoid.
Can be very dangerous in issuing policies and (mis)organizing other people's lives, but they're devoid of moral reflection, due to heavy self-brain washing, or mental disorders.

B

They just fool themselves for most of the time.
The newly-appointed leaders look-up to the old-timers, and copy their intellectual impertinence, which in a way makes them immune to any remorse.
If they have misgivings abut their actions and decisions they fall back upon collective responsibility and they resort to self-delusion.
They always manage to find bottom lines of different sort, even if they are ridiculous, but they allow them to reason any doubts away.

Stuff like:

"the preaching work is gaining momentum world-wide, so we can't be wrong", or

"we've built thousands of kingdom halls all around the world, thousands are still needed, so let's focus on that instead of lagging behind Jehovah's fast moving chariot musing about what we may've done wrong in the past" or

"so many brothers are really grateful for the spiritual provisions we make - they outnumber those who seem to be disgruntled by far, so there must be something wrong with the latter ones. If we disfellowship them - it will only help them understand how they are wrong in independent thinking"

C

Totally cynical and manipulative.
Ends always justify means.
In extreme circumstances willing to accept Stalin's view: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."
You can only have absolute knowledge of their morality if you give them absolute power.
They're only restrained by their egoism (getting sued and jailed if they don't change a certain policy).

Obviously descriptions A and C are extreme but still worth keeping in mind when using terms such as "hypocrisy" or "manipulation".

So what exactly does ?WTS hypocrisy? mean to you - not in terms of acts of hypocrisy, but rather in terms of the people who are guilty of it?

7

Who could it be? (Ezekiel)

by Bubbamar in

an old letter i have from my mom had this ezekiel 33:33 quote as a closing: "they shall know that there was a prophet among them.".

i'm sure she was not referring to ezekiel himself - the person to whom god was speaking.

i'm sure she was referring to the jw's.

Pole

If you read Ezekiel Chapter 3 then maybe you will know who I am.

Bookworm?

27

How Many JWs or ExJWs Have Some Type of Mental Problems?

by minimus in

jw
friends

do you think they are more succeptible to illness than others?

?

Pole

Oh, you can't be serious........

*** Awake! 1960 March 8 p.27 ***
As a rule, for a Christian to go to a worldly psychiatrist is an admission of defeat, it amounts to 'going down to Egypt for help.' ?Isaiah 31:1.
Often when a Witness of Jehovah goes to a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist will try to persuade him that his troubles are caused by his religion, entirely overlooking the fact that the Christian witnesses of Jehovah are the best-oriented, happiest and most contented group of people on the face of the earth. They have the least need for psychiatrists. Also, more and more psychiatrists are resorting to hypnosis, which is a demonic form of worldly wisdom.

7

Who could it be? (Ezekiel)

by Bubbamar in

an old letter i have from my mom had this ezekiel 33:33 quote as a closing: "they shall know that there was a prophet among them.".

i'm sure she was not referring to ezekiel himself - the person to whom god was speaking.

i'm sure she was referring to the jw's.

Pole

The fascinating book of Ezekiel divinely authored by the chastity-loving God of the Bible himself.

Why do you think God took delight in putting some of these words in Ezekiel's inspired mouth? And don't come up with lame excuses, please. Don't show me the hidden prophetic meanings of "the genital organ of male horses".

Ezekiel - a bitter megalomaniac sexual pervert of a prophet:

And she continued giving forth her prostitutions upon them, the choicest sons of As·syr´i·a all of them; and with all those after whom she lusted?with their dungy idols?she defiled herself. 8

And her prostitutions [carried] from Egypt she did not leave, for with her they had lain down in her youth, and they were the ones that pressed the bosoms of her virginity and they kept pouring out their immoral intercourse upon her.

And she kept multiplying her acts of prostitution to the point of calling to mind the days of her youth, when she prostituted herself in the land of Egypt. 20

And she kept lusting in the style of concubines belonging to those whose fleshly member is as the fleshly member of male asses and whose genital organ is as the genital organ of male horses. 21 And you continued calling attention to the loose conduct of your youth by the pressing of your bosoms from Egypt onward, for the sake of the breasts of your youth.

24

And they must come in against you with rattling of war chariots and wheels, and with a congregation of peoples, with large shield and buckler and helmet. They will set themselves against you all around, and I will give judgment over to them, and they must judge you with their judgments. 25 And I will express my ardor against you, and they must take action against you in rage. Your nose and your ears they will remove, and the remainder of you will fall even by the sword. Your sons and your daughters they themselves will take, and the remainder of you will be devoured by the fire. 26 And they will certainly strip off you your garments and take away your beautiful articles. 27 And I shall actually cause your loose conduct to cease from you, and your prostitution [carried] from the land of Egypt; and you will not raise your eyes to them, and Egypt you will remember no more.?

28

?For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ?Here I am giving you into the hand of those whom you have hated, into the hand of those from whom your soul has turned away disgusted. 29 And they must take action against you in hatred and take away all your product of toil and leave you naked and nude; and the nudeness of your acts of fornication and your loose conduct and your acts of prostitution must be uncovered. 30 There will be a doing of these things to you because of your going like a prostitute after [the] nations, on account of the fact that you defiled yourself with their dungy idols. 31 In the way of your sister you have walked; and I shall have to give her cup into your hand.?

29

Spirit-Directed Organization

by UnDisfellowshipped in

this is what the watchtower society claims (i can post quotes if anyone wants them):

* jehovah does not directly communicate with anyone today.

* jehovah is using the watchtower society and the faithful and discreet slave class as his only "channel of communication".

Pole

zen,

I was under the delusional belief that there was something called THE TRUTH and that one could find it... and the IF THEN logic of JWs seemed to provide the answers I was looking for....as long as I did not think to hard...which of course I did and is part of the reason I am now out.... their IF THENs had flaws and I could see all too many times that THEY were defining the IFs as IF there was only THEIR view of it and no other possibilities...as many others do as well...

Using your ifs-and-thens terminology I must say that not only do their thens outnumber their ifs, but most of the ifs are impossible to prove, hard to believe and sometimes simply ridiculous. And when you have problems with the ifs, you can't any longer accept the far-reaching thens.

they had no desire to explore other possibilities, they present their IFs with an absoluteness they never justified.

more than that, they wanted me to say I KNEW I had found THE TRUTH...and I told one elder point blank...well, I believe [at that time] that I have found the truth, but I don't KNOW it... but he was not happy with that and tried to press me more.

Their absoluteness in presenting their ifs only shows that manipulative ifs require a fierce emotional defence. One that contains even more manipulative ifs, for example, they ask questions like:

"So, are you going to leave Jehovah's organization?" "Do you really want to join Satan's system of things?"

There is a classic example of such implicature in linguistics (pragmatics). For example, when somebody asks you a question like: "When did you start beating your wife?", it's obvious how this question is flawed if you have never beaten your wife...

I guess their tests of loyalty ultimately boil down to provocation, even if it's subconscious provocation. They'd love you to get furious at their outright stupidity with foam on your mouth, so they could say: "There's no point in saving this soul, as it has already been captured by Satan".

Reasonable ifs either defend themselves, or nobody is interested in defending them, because the assumption is that they are a matter of faith and so it's up to you to decide if they have any consequences for yourself.

Pole