Posts by Pole

51

Another example of WTS anthropology - The Flood and racial differences

by Pole in

here is another paradox resulting from the wts stand on the flood:

1. jws seriously believe in 2370 bc as the date of the flood

2. they also believe that by the 1st century ad racial differences had been well developed (i mean differences in the outward appearance of course, and not their early racist views for instance).

Pole

XQ,

You are right about the superhuman vitality of Noah's family, just like FunkyDerek is right when saying that there's no point in speculating about a story which is impossible to verify in scientific terms.

But the impression you get from reading such stories is that the writers suggest that the events described are feasible. They give you all the tiny little details, and measurments. That's called naive realism. Something the WTS uses a lot to make an impression they are scientifically verifiable.

Anyway, my last attempt to take this story seriously is a computational simulation I've posted on this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/77664/1.ashx

Pole

24

2370-2180 population increase from10? to 8,000

by badboy in

.

it said in one wt publication(studies inthe scriptures?

)that the human population increased from approxiatemly 10 people to 8,000 people in just 190 years.. is that feastible?

Pole

And the results of 50 simulations (each row contains the total results for 200 years and a based on the premises described above):

Simulation #	Total natural deaths	Total accidental deaths	Total births	Population
0	45	59	1894	1798
1	37	90	10469	10350
2	49	64	3827	3722
3	40	84	10376	10260
4	47	71	3487	3377
5	46	86	9818	9694
6	48	89	11229	11100
7	40	91	7278	7155
8	40	84	6586	6470
9	49	79	7154	7034
10	43	85	7321	7201
11	44	88	6595	6471
12	45	87	6101	5977
13	28	43	594	531
14	47	81	9663	9543
15	46	77	7859	7744
16	46	79	3727	3610
17	46	78	4433	4317
18	40	78	4401	4291
19	44	75	4378	4267
20	47	88	9701	9574
21	37	90	7329	7210
22	45	72	3304	3195
23	43	84	7760	7641
24	29	85	4981	4875
25	42	68	1641	1539
26	41	75	4060	3952
27	42	79	10646	10533
28	45	91	12161	12033
29	40	65	3160	3063
30	42	84	6206	6088
31	39	75	2641	2535
32	34	54	1590	1510
33	47	74	2842	2729
34	44	89	7819	7694
35	40	81	8600	8487
36	56	62	3206	3096
37	44	82	9345	9227
38	43	84	9872	9753
39	42	76	5158	5048
40	53	73	7044	6926
41	45	72	3762	3653
42	49	69	2318	2208
43	45	89	9298	9172
44	49	61	2279	2177
45	51	67	3942	3832
46	43	77	3984	3872
47	49	73	5204	5090
48	53	74	5853	5734
49	48	79	8961	8842

24

2370-2180 population increase from10? to 8,000

by badboy in

.

it said in one wt publication(studies inthe scriptures?

)that the human population increased from approxiatemly 10 people to 8,000 people in just 190 years.. is that feastible?

Pole

OldHippie,

As you said: it only makes sense to speculate about rapid population growth if you have a much wider "genetic bottle neck" than that in the Flood story. Or, if you assume constant divine intervention.

Here is an interesting comment made by DH:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/77620/1257769/post.ashx#1257769

Anyway, my point is this:

::I would like to produce a spreadsheet once I get the time, to see what is possible and what is not.

Actually, I've just finished writing a computer program which can simulate population growth .

Here are the initial parameters. I'm not sure if they make sense, so if they don't make sense, and anyone is interested in modifying them just let me know, and I'll generate new results.
---

1) I'm starting with 3 fertile couples.

2) Average life expectancy (in terms of natural death): 99 (both men and women)

3) Average number of children per woman (their fertility period is 20-50, and the child infant rate is 0.25 - to balance the asumption that all men/women are fertile) Anyway the average number of births per woman is roughly: 5.5

4) Annual risk of accidental death or any accident resulting in loss of fertility :) (wars, diseases, anything nasty):

1 in 100.

This may seem high, but if you look at the resultant figures, it's still a rather optimistic scenario.

5) The period of time simulated is 200 years

-----

My initial conclusion is this: whatever your simulation, the results are terribly skewed. What we can know is the maximum, minimum and the average values.

Once again, I must say, the Flood story pretends to be realistic and verifiable, but in fact it's not. BUt after all, what can you expect of a piece of religious writing written a 3000 years ago (or whenever Genesis was written)?

Below are the results of 50 simulations of population growth from 3 couples in 200 years. The minimum result with my optimistic premises is 591, and the maximum is over 12000! But that's life, if you're lucky you win in the lottery, most of the time you don't.

EDITED TO EXPLAIN: For instance the simulation with the final population of 591 after 200 years may be due to the unfortunate death of just two people at the very begining of the breeding period.

The average is: 5924.

This is still poor and urealistic statistics (the assumption is Jehovar blessed the people constantly), but better than the "explanations" provided by the WTS, which are simply ridiculous while pretending to be realistic.

14

Tigris and Euphrates rivers

by undercover in

something just hit me as i was reading the genesis account.. genesis chapter 2:.

10 a river watering the garden flowed from eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.

11 the name of the first is the pishon; it winds through the entire land of havilah, where there is gold.

Pole

Interesting question, especially if you consider the fact that the WTS teaches the Flood resulted in dramatic geological changes.

If as they claim that even mountains were reshaped by the flood and the entire atmoshpere was changed in the event, how come Moses would still refer to modern-day rivers when describing the ante-deluvial world?

The mention of the two rivers is just another anachronism found in the book of Genesis. Genesis is characterised by naive realism, and when a writer uses naive realism (specifying exact figures and locations, which are made up, but used anyway to make the sotry sound more realistic), it's easy to make an embarrassing mistake.

it-1 p. 610 Deluge ***

Since, as the Genesis account says, ?all the tall mountains? were covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said that ?there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.? (National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover ?all the tall mountains,? as the inspired record says.?Ge 7:19.

49

God is editor of the WT

by Earnest in

jw
friends

in an earlier thread reference was made to a court case in which fred franz stated that jehovah god was editor of the "watch tower".

as this quotation is often used to support the allegation that jws believe the wt is inspired of god i thought it would be of wider interest to provide the relevant court record for general consideration.. the court case itself was in 1940 and was olin moyle against fred franz and others and the wtbts.

just so that you know who is who, hayden covington was attorney for the defendants and walter bruchhausen was attorney for the plaintiff.

Pole

Terry,

Where do I err in the above?

I'm sorry to hijack this thread by compiling all the crap that I'm pasting below, but I want to illustrate how the WTS can answer any doubts, even if they are formulated as clearly and precisely as it was done by Terry. They can do it by applying Goethes rule:

"When ideas fail, words come in very handy."

All you need to do to answer Terry's questions is produce enough crap to tire the WT reader. After a 45 minute exposure to "the gospel of gobbedly-gook" (Undaunted Danny's Phrase) any faithful WatchTowerarian with heavy emotional investment will feel appeased.

A possible answer from the WTS writing Department:

Is the Governing Body the mediator between the entire government of God and the readers of the Watchtower? What is the Biblical Answer?

Terry the Apostate, Texas, USA

Dear Ex-Brother Terry,

As you know, Satan the Great Philosopher by sly deception induced the first human pair to try to exalt themselves as gods, but the result they experienced was a fall into sin and death, and with them in their plunge into delinquency they took the entire human race.

However, Jehovah arranged a heavenly reward for a privileged group, whom he will use in realizing his original purposes. Together with their Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, they constitute the kingdom for which Jesus taught his followers to pray. They comprise the ?seed of Abraham? for the blessing of ?all nations of the earth.??Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:29.

An interesting question is posed in the book of Job: ?Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain, and a way for the thunderbolt???Job 38:25. This is a description of the o perations of conveying physical waters from their heavenly vaults in the skies for distribution to needy sections of the land being by means of a set channel. Similar principles are found to exist as to the conveyance of spiritual waters of truth to men.

Scientific Evidence

Jehovah God?s throne is the absolute center of the boundless universe as to its creative existence, operations and interests. This throne is not at the astral center of the great galaxy of numberless galaxies of stars or island universes that now exist within or beyond the range of man?s visual powers. But it is at the creative center where God of necessity is the very foundation of all his works. All creation revolves around him as its source, which makes God the Living Center. The centripetal force of this vast system of animate and inanimate things is inward toward him. All is inseparably united to Him. We need only mention by way of illustration our planetary system wherein the individual planets revolve in established relationship around our sun as the center. Then the minutest illustration would be that of the structure of the atom where tiny electrons revolve in paths around their proton nucleus, or center. The nuclear design of operations around fixed centers is universal.?Ps. 93:2; 36:9.

Biblical Evidence

In accordance with the scientific evidence provided by SOME (*** w55 5/15 p. 303), the Bible also assures us that Jehovah God serves as the magnetic center of a vast society of heavenly living creatures who find a non-ending delight in being in family relationship with him as their Father and Life-giver. To sustain this family relationship God maintains a constant flow of communication from himself. All these faithful heavenly residents are ministers, ministering spirit creatures, worshiping God out of genuine love and free will. (Heb. 1:14) The Bible describes them as forming a happy royal-court organization comprising millions of angelic ministers placed in ranks and divisions, all functioning with high purpose around the Central Personage, the royal Ancient of Days, Jehovah God.?Dan. 7:9, 10; 1 Cor. 14:33.

Jehovah's Unique Channel of Communication

Because the Bible describes Jehovah as "the God of Loving Kindness and Gentle Communication" (NWT) it is reasonable to assume that t he Word (now Jesus) has had the longest experience of any in receiving the orders of Jehovah and putting them into effect. In his long ancient career of communication he has had a flawless reputation of faithfully transmitting every order of God, never varying it with his own view or originating his own orders contrary to God?s wishes (John 7:16-18; 14:10). This is the first section of Jehovah's Divine Channel of Communication.

However we should not overlook the earthly end of the amazing communication line. Which of the hundreds of sects and denominations of those who claim to be Christian is Jehovah?s spokesman today in the earth as his divinely appointed and organized channel of communication? The twelve biblical requirements help us identify it in our modern times:

First, the congregation of Christ of the twentieth century must know what the name of its God is as revealed by Jesus to his early disciples and must become witnesses of this majestic name even as were the prophets of old, Jesus and the first-century Christians. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses and their companions today have a rich understanding of the divine name JEHOVAH and accordingly are endeavoring to live up to this name as His witnesses.?Isa. 43:12; John 17:6, 11, 26; Acts 15:14.

Second, the congregation of Christ started by Jesus as the channel is made up of all anointed ones who are spirit-begotten with a hope of ruling with Christ in heaven and whose number is set at 144,000. Which group of Christians in the earth today gives evidence of being the remnant of this nineteen-hundred-years-old richly matured congregation of Christ in its works and beliefs? Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses.?1 John 2:27; Rev. 14:1.

Third, the congregation of Christ must be marked distinctly by being persecuted among the nations for her integrity to Biblical principles and for her uncompromising virgin purity to Christ Jesus as the King of the new world. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses and their companions have such a distinguishing mark by being persecuted the world over.?Matt. 24:9.

Fourth, the congregation of Christ must accept all the progressive revelations of the one true religion as contained in the Hebrew Scriptures channeled through all the prophets of old down to John the Baptist and in the Greek Scriptures channeled through Christ Jesus and his disciples. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses and their companions, the ?other sheep,? do.?2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev. 22:18, 19; John 10:16.

Fifth, the congregation of Christ must realize it went through a scattering period leading to a ?Babylonish? spiritual captivity, from which there must have been a regathering of ?his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.? Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses who have been regathered since 1919 from all nations, languages and former religious associations realize this.?Matt. 24:31, NW; Rev. 18:4.

Sixth, the congregation of Christ must keep spiritually awake for the return of her Lord Jesus Christ and, when he comes invisibly with attention to this earth?s affairs, she must accept him and receive the joy and delight of the King?s presence as Ruler. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses have been spiritually awake to realize this great event of Christ?s enthronement in heaven in 1914.?Matt. 24:3, 42-44; 25:1-23.

Seventh, the congregation of Christ after the return of her Lord must, as the ?house of God,? receive her judgment when Jehovah?s messenger comes to the temple for judgment, and this prior to the rest of the world. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses experienced this judgment cleansing when the ?messenger? came to his temple in 1918.?1 Pet. 4:17; Mal. 3:1-3.

Eighth, the congregation of Christ, when cleansed, must have received the commendation of her Lord by being designated the ?faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time.? Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses have realized this office since 1919, since when they have made a supreme effort to channel forth clean spiritual food to all those in association with them as Christ?s ?domestics.??Matt. 24:45-47, NW.

Ninth, the congregation of Christ must receive in the last days the special commission that ?this good news of the kingdom? must be ?preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.? Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses together with their companions have published information concerning the establishment of Christ?s kingdom in 1914, which publication has now reached into 160 lands of earth.?Matt. 24:14, NW.

Tenth, the congregation of Christ must today follow its first-century pattern by receiving progressive understandings of Bible prophecies which unfold further majestic purposes of the Living God and which new light of truth must be published impartially the world over by God?s prophetlike organization. Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses and their companions ?do not treat prophesyings with contempt? but publish their fulfillments as they become clear, in their Bible publications.?1 Thess. 5:20; Rev. 11:3, 4, NW.

Eleventh, the congregation of Christ must realize a change in her work from that of gathering the ?little flock? for heavenly privileges to that of gathering out the ?other sheep? to become prospective Kingdom subjects to live happily forever on a paradise earth that is destined to continue unendingly in fulfillment of the great Abrahamic promise. Only the anointed remnant have experienced this since the years 1932 and 1935.?Gen. 22:18; Luke 12:32; John 10:16; Matt. 25:31-33.

Twelfth, the congregation of Christ must realize the certain time when Jehovah ?plants the new heavens and lays the foundation of the new earth? as part of his permanent New World system of things. Only Jehovah?s witnesses realize this and have come to know that since 1919 a New World society is developing to expand to fill the whole earth in righteousness.?Isa. 51:16; 65:17; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1.

WANT MORE?

How You Can Respect and Help Sustain Jehovah's Channel of Communication

The faithful steward class, represented by the Governing Body, has a God-given responsibility to manage properly not only its spiritual ?talents, but material ones too!? (Matt. 25:15) In harmony with ?the faithful steward?s? example, individual branch corporations make every effort to use all financial contributions in a responsible manner, to further Kingdom interests. All such donations are made on trust, and ?the faithful steward, the discreet one? is responsible to ensure that they are used for the purpose intended and that they are handled wisely, economically, and to good effect.

Your donations are thus very welcome.

Your Ex-Brothers

51

Another example of WTS anthropology - The Flood and racial differences

by Pole in

here is another paradox resulting from the wts stand on the flood:

1. jws seriously believe in 2370 bc as the date of the flood

2. they also believe that by the 1st century ad racial differences had been well developed (i mean differences in the outward appearance of course, and not their early racist views for instance).

Pole

Heathen,

I don't wish to imply that the WTBTS time line is infallable simply because many of their doctrines have been proven false but in the beginning the plan was to start with 2 people and after the flood they started with 8 people .

Are you saying that the Flood story was true because the Eden story was true? Whose "plan" are you talking about?

I have heard some genetic scientists state that they have found evidence of a sudden change of the genetic diversity in human beings but they figure that at one point mankind only decreased in population to a couple of thousand instead of 8 .

Where did you "hear" that? Besides 4 couples (assuming Noah + wife could have children) doesn't even begin to comapare to "a couple of thousand". What's your point?

Perhaps people are only basing the assumption that only one child was born during a 9 month period but we can't say for sure on any of that . People are known to have more than one child in a pregnancy .

And perhaps in your fuzzy assertions you are disregarding natural adult and infant death rates, wars, accidents, infertility, genetic pathology, famine, god's righteous judgements (Sodom, etc), epidemics, etc.

Read Genesis chapter 10:1-32 and tell me what kind of birth rates we may assume just after the flood? I don't think any quintuplets are mentioned there specifically. So where did you get your assumption from? The truth is the whole Flood story is a poorly written fable. It depends heavily on naive realism - precise measurments of the ark, the exact number of years all of the male characters lived, detailed descriptions of how different animals were saved, etc. And when when we try to be consisntent andwe make an attempt to follow this line of realistic reasoning you use your final argument:

There are alot of unknowns .

SO effectively you are saying: "forget about your realistic simulations, because there a lot of unknowns". If we know little, how come you know more when expressing your belief in the Flood? What is it exactly that you know and we don't?

There are a lot of unknowns therefore it is reasonable to assume that aliens control world politics. Try to prove me wrong. Start with proving there are no aliens.

20

From JW to Atheist; Now, how do I face my family?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

hey gang,.

i've read dozens of threads here, some sounding similar to what i'm writing now.

i can't help it, i want to talk about it.

Pole

Hi AlmostAtheist,

I was in a very similar situation a year ago. I realized there was little point in trying to destroy her faith in God in an all-out attack. And it would be immoral anyway, wouldn't it? Even now that I'm pretty much atheist I respect her right to believe in God and I try to emphasize it in our discussions.

What I did instead was I focused on gradually exposing the WTS and the WTS God Jehovar for what they are. I started with tiny litle discrepancies and ended up condemning them for outright hypocrisy and scandals. It all takes time. Sometimes you need to take a break from "proselytizing", only to resume after a few days.

From your description I gather your wife has some social reasons for showing up at the meetings and taking part in the religious routines of the JWs. This is a good sign actually. It was pretty much the same with my wife - she had a lot of JW friends and much emotional investment in their "gospel of gobbledy-gook" (Undaunted Danny's phrase).

My results are very encouraging. My wife is almost out of the borg.

Whatever tactic you choose, make sure you are positive and consctructive. Let her see how being intellectually honest makes you a better person, how it allows you to keep smiling despite shunning. make sure that you consider the whole shunning thing a childlish game invented and played by the WTS and their slaves. You may want to play it but for some time, but only condescendingly and cynically so - that's one definition of fading. Be tolerant but at the same time let her see that you have moral arguments against the WTS at the same time.

Good luck!

BTW,

Check out this thread even if it's only partly relevant to your experiences, you'll see that there are many other faders on this board:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/34518/1.ashx

Pole

24

2370-2180 population increase from10? to 8,000

by badboy in

.

it said in one wt publication(studies inthe scriptures?

)that the human population increased from approxiatemly 10 people to 8,000 people in just 190 years.. is that feastible?

Pole

If each post-Flood male parent at the age of 30 were to begin fathering children at the rate of one child every three years, with an average of one male child every six years, and continued this until the age of 90 ,

Is it reasonable to take this male perspective on fathering children? I think this line of reasoning is totally flawed. How could Jehooodaar's light be so dim when they wrote this crap?

The real question is rather:

To how many children each woman may have given birth. And the average woman cannot mother children regularly until her 90s, can she? The span of fertility is much more limited. Not to mention the fact that some women are not fertile. (Incidentally, the same goes for men, but doesn't the Bible always blames women for it? The men would always get another wive/slave and the problem was solved.).

Of course you could assume there was polygamy, but the male/female ratio is about 1:1, isn't it? So how would all of those males have found two or more wives? Even if they'd "swapped" wives (sexist, I know), the poor women wouldn't have typically got pregnant with more than 1 man at the same time (possible, but not typical). And how would that fulfill God's standards of chastity.

Anyway, if we are trying to establish the upper limits of population growth ratio, we should consider women's capabilities not men's.

Edited to add: For instance, theoretically a fertile male (kind of King Solomon-like situation) could have sex every day for a year - each day with a different woman - and thus "father" 365 children within one year. The problem is: how do you get sooo many "wives" for every man?

Another problem results from the terribly limited pool of genes - having just three couples initially would have resulted in serious genetic pathology in the third generation and later. (As TD pointed out on my thread - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/77620/2.ashx).

Who's wrong? Me or Jehovar's sole channel of communication?

Edited to add: In answering your question: The figures they suggest are possible if you disregard a dozen or so negative factors (natural adult and infant death rates/wars/accidents/infertility/genetic pathology/god's righteous judgements (Sodom, etc), epidemics, etc.). In short: "everything is possible with God". Even if it looks like totally unnatural, nonsensical and unnecessary.

51

Another example of WTS anthropology - The Flood and racial differences

by Pole in

here is another paradox resulting from the wts stand on the flood:

1. jws seriously believe in 2370 bc as the date of the flood

2. they also believe that by the 1st century ad racial differences had been well developed (i mean differences in the outward appearance of course, and not their early racist views for instance).

Pole

Leolaia,

Just to add to what XQs was saying, race is a biologically invalid concept.

Thank you. Although I don't think that the concept of "biological" human races has been suggested on this thread. We made a distinction between racial differences as a sociological phenomenon, and the development of different species of elephants for instance from the pair of elephants which Noah took on his ark. The latter would qualify as a rapid biological phenomenon, wouldn't it? That's what I mean by "Hyper-speed biological evolution".

My point about racial differences was that 2000 years wasn't engouh for such differences to develop, especially if you take into account the scarcity of the post-deluvial population (Noah + family).

I learned this in a lecture by a geneticist who also noted that it takes about 7,000 years for melanin production in a population to go from one extreme to another; thus the whitest white Australian will be as black as those in equtaorial Africa in about 9000 AD.

Just a silly question here: Is the geographic location of a population the only factor involved? Especially in modern societies?

51

Another example of WTS anthropology - The Flood and racial differences

by Pole in

here is another paradox resulting from the wts stand on the flood:

1. jws seriously believe in 2370 bc as the date of the flood

2. they also believe that by the 1st century ad racial differences had been well developed (i mean differences in the outward appearance of course, and not their early racist views for instance).

Pole

XQ,

Well depends on what you mean a race which is a social concept at best. You have flat hair, round hair, eye fold, sans fold, high melanin, low melanin, thin nose, thick nose alleles (there are ear shapes too, but oddly nobody counts them as part of your racial Identity short of vulcans and elves). This is a genetic Mr. potato head.

Yup. All clear. ALthough to get a statistically significant pattern you need some time.

Anyone in the sun cancer belt will eventually get darker skin. Because skin cancer will kill you relatively quickly. The rest are just luck of the draw from when ever humans split. None of them are linked to each other. You can be black with blond hair, Asian with green eyes. If you don't have a culture behind it to say "we are the green eyed Asian people" people assume it is a novelty and move on. Remember humans are smart and can make anything part of sexual attraction. People with these traits are gobbled up quickly, taken care of better, and live better. Who thought small feet were sexy enough to break women?s feet in foot binding, or small waist sexy enough to push your ribs into your liver and make child birth impossible. It also works in reverse by making something obnoxious a cultural trait to keep outsiders from mixing with you.

Yep. But it all takes time, especially when we're talking about regular racial differences between societies and not just chance variations, or "deviations from the norm" (sorry for my politically -incorrect language). This kind of time scale is missing from the Genesis chronology.

You said the process magically stopped 1 AD. I know there are a bunch of Mexicans that will disagree with you. Almost 500 years ago lil white guys in boats met some Indians and now you have a whole new "race".

You've made a nice distinction between social and environmental factors which I liked and now you're lumping them together! Of course a "new sociologically-conditioned race" can get created within a few generations if you already have a few "ready-made environmentally-conditioned races" which you can mix. That's simple. The problem is that African-Americans and white Europeans haven't become more similar to Native Americans during the same 500 years than to Africans or Europeans respectively. Besides, what I had in mind was the WT picture of the Ethiopian eunuch.