Pole

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Posts by Pole

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  16

  GERMANS: Need info about apartments in Deutschland

  by seattleniceguy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm gearing up for an extended trip to europe starting this summer.

  i'm hoping to stay about two years altogether, and i'd like to stay about six months each in four different locations.

  i'm thinking about starting in germany, mostly because i'm interested in studying german and i've heard it's a beatiful country.. so here's my question.

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  Pole

  SNG,
  
  Let me know when you are in Germany. Poland is a short trip from there, so I offer my help in taking a short break from the German Ordnung every once in a while. :-).
  
  Pole
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  30

  Language

  by onacruse in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ok, so since sng suggested this (in the "intelligent design" thread), let's take a shot, eh?.

  take a human baby, immediately from the womb; provide every physical need, but absolutely no direct contact whatsoever!

  no faces, no voices, no sounds, no other humans, no animals, no trees and leaves and flowers--just a pure and simple newborn, clean slate.. would this baby naturally develop a language, some language, any language?.

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  Pole

  Just wanted to say I'll show up here later (Lots of work today/tomorrow).
  
  Pole
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  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

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  Pole

  SNG,
  
  I'll reply tomorrow on another thread which onacruse has just started.
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/85662/1.ashx
  
  Cheers
  
  Pole
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  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

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  Pole

  SNG,

  Yes, I understand that critical acquisition period. But the first part of your quote above almost seems almost silly. I take it as a given that 99.9999% of humans live in contact with other humans. So interaction is a given. The children were certainly not exposed to language - the point is that each generation created what did not exist before. But I think we are in agreement here. A single person in isolation would not create language. Again, to me this seems like a silly point, except for the fact that the poor guy would be deprived of a great tool for organizing and ordering his own thoughts.

  Leolaia has already questioned the supposed novelty of the Nicaraguan case. I don't know much about it, but I know Pinker has a generativist agenda (well every inguist has one) so I'd follow Leolaia's advice in this regard. I guess I'd have to study the case to say anything more, so I acknowledge the info you've given and I'll try to look into it and see if it has any bearing on my current views. Thanks. As for my point about some cases where there is no interaction - I think statistically speaking it's just about as significant as the case of "creating languages from scratch". And it brings some insights which are relevant to langauge acquisition and the critical period hypothesis. In other words this point is as "silly" or as anegdotal as teh case of Nicaraguan children. (99.9999% if any langauages are not created out of thin air) I'll try to find a description of such a case and paste it here to clarify my point.

  If it was a tropical island, would they ever develop the concept of snow? Or is there some determinism involved anyway?

  I really don't think this is a function of language. Let's say this tropical tribe has no word for snow, since they've never seen it and never spoken to anyone else who has seen it. Does this lack of vocabulary constrain their ability to think of snowy scenes? Or is it the mere fact that they haven't seen snow that constrains them? If one unusual day a tropical snowstorm dumps a meter of snow on the island, will the islanders somehow be disadvantaged in their ability to comprehend it? Or will they not rather invent new words for the new phenomena at that moment?

  That's one of the biggest misconceptions of early Chomskian linguistics. No, the literal meanings may not be such a problem, but if you look at any language you'll see that any abstract meaning is based on some culture specific metaphor. It's a ubiquitous phenomenon. It renders the apparent formal equivalence between the grammars of any two languages useless.

  The fallacy involved is best illustrated when you make an attempt to translate a piece of text such as the Bible into the language of, say, the Eskimo Indians. If Jesus if the Lamb of God in a MIddle Eastern culture, what will he become in the Eskimo culture? The "Seal of God"? Will such a translation really have the same connotative meaning?

  I consider vocabulary to be fairly divorced from the low-level engine that enables language. Words are just snap-in data components. Obviously, the more real-world knowledge you have, the more easily you will be able to create metaphor to describe other concepts.

  Contrary to what first Bloomfield and then Chomsky made one of their basic premises, the lexicon (vocabulary) is not just a repository of arbitrary irregularities and idosyncracies. It is extremely systematic, but it's systematicity reflects human cognition, and that's why generative armchair linguists tend to discredit it altogether. I totally disagree with this view of the lexicon. It's out of keeping with all the emiprircal research in language I've done so far. (Not that I have some emotional investment here )

  But this is a function of human ability to compare, anthopomorphize, etc, rather than being a magical power bestowed by possessing a set of words.

  As I said it probably works both ways. In order to separate the "ability to compare, anthopomorphize, etc," from language you have to conclude that language is more or less contained in syntax. This is a very risky assumption to make especially when it comes to dealing with real language data e.g. in translation.

  Language is my thing. Up till now I've examined it only by study of specific languages. Now I'm looking at it from a more abstract view, and it is fascinating.

  In the cognitive paradigm I suggest Lakoff and Johnson to begin with some criticism of Chomsky. Then, for a more empirical apporoach to the lexicon and grammar you may want to look at Corpus Linguistics. I specialize in Computational/Corpus Linguistics - in case you are interested in my agenda.

  Maybe we should move this to a new thread?

  I;m enjoying our exchange and that's fine by me if you dont' think it's not too late to move the discussion to another thread.

  Cheers,

  Pole
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  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

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  Pole

  Narkissos,

  And "hyper" is also a spatial metaphor, up or above, indicating surpassing or overcoming (in that case, the 3D).

  "Hyperspace" is the multiplication of two metaphors coming from our description of reality; it projects us into a fictional, yet analogical universe. Not so different from the worlds of mythology or theology or Sci-Fi IMHO. I can invent and describe a virtual world and its rules, but I can't make it exist outside language (in the broadest sense of the term).

  I do realize the prefix "hyper" contains a spatial metaphor just as the whole concept of multidimensionality. I'm just not sure about the similarities between algebraic hyperspace and the world of mythology. Multidimensional hyperspaces are almost exhaustively and rigidly predictable in computational terms. An architect who makes up his geometry as he goes along designing a house won't stay long in the business. The opposite is true with religious thinkers. That the same brain may be used to deal with the two realities is fairly obvious. But only one of them is at least largely predictable a priori which may suggest a different ontological status.

  SNG,

  I mean the underlying set of rules that allows speakers to parse, create, and understand sentences.

  I'm not sure about Pinker's background (he's more a pop-sci linguist, which does not invalidate some of his conclusions), but he may primarily mean syntax. This is a generativist perspective which ignores the huge impact of culture on language and language on culture. If our ability to speak was totally dependant on the LAD then we'd all be speaking more or less the same language - at least gramamtically speaking. To get a more balanced view on the question of what makes language work, I suggest you have a look at the cognitive linguistics approach. Chomsky ignores irony and metaphors and the basics of human conceptualization.

  It is, but the point is that creoles invariably contain grammatical constructs that are entirely absent from the parent pidgin. The constructs are created by children who grow up speaking the pidgin but who require more precise modes of communication than allowed by the current system. The new features ostensibly come from an inborn "universal grammar." Pinker notes that the types of mistakes children make when learning language are often very similar across linguistic boundaries, suggesting that children expect language to work a certain way and have to override those expections in some cases.

  Again, the "Universal grammar" is not the only game in town :-) - Pinker is basically echoing Noam Chomsky's early views . The creol thing is amazing, but it only happens when the culture you are born into doesn't provide you with with sufficient grammatical constructs to fulfill your communicative needs. Which is why French babies don't make up gramamtical constructs which are missing entirely from French - or at least they do not hold to them for too long :).

  Actually, in this case, it truly was language from nothing. Here's how it worked. In 1979 a new government was formed in Nicaragua and it set up schools for the deaf. Until that time, the deaf had lived isolated from one another so this was the first time that this particular group of children had ever gotten together with other deaf children. At the time, there was no sign language in Nicaragua, but on the playgrounds, the children began communicating with each other by using gestures and pantomimes. This gave rise to a sort of sign pigdin. However, the next generation that came in, aged around four, observed this pidgin and formed new grammatical devices that have become standardized. Pinker says:

  I think we agree. Perhaps I should have expressed my point clearer, but here is what I actually said:

  Ahhh. Language is never born from thin air. There must be some stimulation and interaction before the clinically established "critical period" (between 6 and 12). In other words the hypothetical Language Acquistion Device always need an activating stimulus which in turn shapes the exact form of the language.

  In the case you desctibed there was an activating stimulus: the children were brought together and allowed to interact. There are real examples of people who were held in isolation from birth to the age of 15 and more. They were never able to master any language after reaching the critical age. Just as you will never learn to speak Portugese like a native speaker, you old bastard (sorry that's Gumby's expression) .

  That's why I said that a group of language-less adults dropped onto an isolated island would regain language in a few generations. The adults would first form a roughshod pidgin among themselves. Then, their children would hone it into a standardized creole. The grandchildren would harden and flush it out ever more. Voila! New language.

  Yep. So we have the LAD, but we also have a group of interacting people set in particular circumstances. If it was a tropical island, would they ever develop the concept of snow? Or is there some determinism involved anyway?

  Pole
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  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

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  Pole

  It's one of those egg-or-chicken dualisms. Does the language shape the cuture or does the culture shape the language? Well, that depends on the level of analysis. It seems to work both ways. To some extent both SNG and onacruse are right, although I'm not entirely sure what the disagreement is precisely.

  SNG,

  That would certainly be more intuitive. But I think the evidence indicates the contrary. This can be seen especially in the case of pidgins (not to be confused with the full-fledged language that is commonly called Pidgin English, from the Solomon Islands), Pidgins are "language salads" that do not contain grammatical constructs necessary for a precision of communication. They are formed when adults speaking many different languages are forced to live or work together. Children born into such language environments actually introduce new grammatical features where none existed before. The resulting language, which does contain a full-fledged grammar, is called a creole.

  Good point, but actually, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "grammar"? And you shouldn't forget that the creol is considerably dependent on the pidgin that gave rise to it. So there is a lot of liguistic determinism involved even in those cases.

  One of the theories which attempts to account for the duality in question at the neuro-linguistic level is the Language Acquistion Device theory (40+ years old now - it has lost much of its original appeal): each child is born with an inborn Universal Grammar which is generic enough to develop into any natural language system. But which natural language it will develop into depends on the culture the child is born into.

  The most striking example of a language being born from thin air is the arisal in only 30 years of a fully-formed language among deaf children in Nicaragua.

  Ahhh. Language is never born from thin air. There must be some stimulation and interaction before the clinically established "critical period" (between 6 and 12). In other words the hypothetical Language Acquistion Device always need an activating stimulus which in turn shapes the exact form of the language.

  Pole
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  12

  JW Media site - Russian ban proves severe to JW's and the WTS

  by truthseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is a very interesting news article that the wts has put on their website.

  notice how many times they use the word "slanderous" without mentioning specifics...

  jehovah?s witnesses?russia.

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  Pole

  It doesn't have much to do with the JW's cultish traits.
  
  I think most likely it's all part of a deal between the authorities and the Orthodox Church. Remember that even Chatholics get "persecuted" in Russia. A number of Catholic Bishops were expelled from the country recently. And even the Pope's protest was largely ignored.
  
  There is only one reason this could be happening: any religion that could constitute competition to the Orthodox Church will run into trouble. In the case of the Witnesses the excuse (whether justified or not) is their mind-control tactics. Russia is not a theocracy, but if the authorities want a deal with an important religion they'll always favour the Orthodox Church. The 133,000 figure the WTS keep repeating is a joke. Especially if you take into consideration the fact that they don't vote. No politician will give a heck about the witnesses. And in Russia it's all about politics. Just look what happend with one of their oil corporations.
  
  Pole
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  38

  Pioneerers can count up to 25 hours for taking special language

  by DaCheech in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the latest announcement letters from the wts is that people should attend special.

  classes setup for the purpose of preaching to foreign language communities.

  these special classes are.

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  Pole

  The legalistic stupidity of WTS has gained a new dimension.
  
  It's another totalitarian tactic. They produce a virtual, worthless currency and pay their mental slaves with it.
  
  In former-communist countries like Poland we have special vocab for such arrangements. This one is a "kombinat" - a large self-sustainable totalitarian factory complex whose workers get paid with the money produced by the factory. And they can only spend this money at the factory store.
  
  
  Anybody out there wants to buy 50 pineer hours?
  
  Pole
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  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

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  Pole

  onacruse,

  I'd have to face up to Kant again soon as I have to take one more exam in philosophy within the next year.

  Narkissos,

  I understand, and from this point of view I would agree. However, rather than "natural / artificial" language I would choose something like "common / specialised" (language levels); the latter (specialised language) exists in most languages, both in a technical (e.g. hunt, medicine, magic vocabularies) and a theoretical way (e.g. mythology).

  I guess it's a question of degree (like everything), but the notion of artificial language does seem to function in some cases. I mean there is a considerable qualitative difference between the jargon of literary criticism and some aspects of the symbolism of algebra which escape the standard linguistic mechanisms (like the metaphor).

  Are you sure you can draw a (mathematical) line ?

  I would distinguish between conceptualisation and representation...

  As I said - I agree with you as far as the ontology goes. A mathematical line is just as abstract as a 25 dimensional entity. However, I was speaking of the mechansim of cognition in understanding and using the concept of a line and the concept of a multidimensional hyperspace. BTW, do you believe all metaphors are experiential? (Do they have to be rooted in our interaction with the real world?)

  In "hyperspace" I can count two live metaphors from the 3D world...

  I'm not sure if I get it. Could you elaborate?

  (Sorry I can't develop, I'm leaving... laters).

  No problem. I'm going out to try to start my old car now. If I don't do it now it won't sart tomorrow. Winter....

  Pole
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  86

  Name posters who stand out for some reason....

  by JH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'll let somebody else start

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  Pole

  Mac - for getting rid of his smurf avatar.
  
  (It's late here...)
  
  Pole