phoenix, az -- valley of the sun -- any phx people?
lookin' for locals.
I'm in Phoenix. I sent you an e-mail.
I got the following message.
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification .
Delivery to the following recipients failed.
[email protected]
Sorry, I left out a letter -- I should use a macro. After typing
[email protected]
so many times anything close looks right.
phoenix, az -- valley of the sun -- any phx people?
lookin' for locals.
Phoenix, AZ -- Valley of the Sun -- Any PHX people?
Lookin' for locals.
[email protected] 602-XXX-XXXX Oops, rule #9 Sorry.
--
another thread asks, "is it possible to reason with a typical jw?
" but a couple said, what i'm trying to say is you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
another unmentioned proverb says: one convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.. .
Another thread asks, "Is it Possible to Reason with a Typical JW?"
Many said, "NO!" But a couple said,
What I'm trying to say is you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Another unmentioned proverb says:
One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
The two books mentioned in the title of this thread were written in 1956 and 1957 by Leon Festinger. I don't remember any direct mention of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, he presents a very intersting "Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group that Predicted the Destruction of the World."
The author joined a group predicting the end of the world in the 1950s. Then he kept notes on what happened leading up to the failure of the prophecy. Then he kept notes on what happened after the prophecy failed. Finally, he started writing about his insights into the group and its members.
From page 3 of When Prophecy Fails --
A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point.
We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks.
But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view.
How and why does such a response to contradictory evidence come about? This is the question on which this book focuses. We hope that, by the end of the volume, we will have provided an adequate answer to the question, an answer documented by data.
Just about any one who reads these books (written 50 years ago) will be able to draw many parallels with what happened to them in their subjection to the WTS. Most may even be surprised that this information was on the library bookshelf their entire lives.
Congratulations on your escape from Egypt. My wish for you is that if you have not yet made it into the Promised Land (Christ), you will soon cross Jordan. If you are already in Christ, "Yo, Bro! -- Jesus is LORD!"
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
Dear Sweetp0985 et al. --
As much as I loathe pointing anyone to a Jesus Seminar publication, perhaps the most convenient collection of truly early extra-canonical Gospels is this one:
The Complete Gospels by Robert J. Miller. The revised edition adds fragments from three more discoveries to bring the total to 20 (including the four canonical Gospels); thus, making the first edition "Complete Gospels" even more complete.
I bought my used paperback copy over the Internet for $10.00. It may be out of print. Here's the info:
Printed by HarperSanFrancisco in 1994. ISBN: 0-06-065587-9 -- LC: BS2552.24 -- Dewey: 226'.05208 -- LCC: 94-34585.
Grace & Peace,
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
You can purchase just one Bible by itself. However, my favorite, when I can lift it, is the one I bought at Half-Price Books for less that $40.00 --
The Complete Parallel Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments with the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical Books: New Revised Standard Version, Revised English Bible, New American Bible, New Jerusalem Bible. Printed by Oxford University Press in 1993.
Although it is printed on Bible paper, it is still more than 2.5 inches thick and contains way more than 3000 pages. The pages are double-columned. On the left pages are two Protestant translations and on the right pages are two Roman Catholic translations. Furthermore, they cover the raging debate between "literal" and "dynamic/freer" translation styles. The Protestant Bibles are the NRSV (literal) and REB (dynamic/freer) and the Roman Catholic Bibles are the NAB (literal) and NJB (dynamic/freer). Excellent cross-section. Any one of the four may be purchased as stand alone. Both literal Bibles (NRSV & NAB) are American. Both dynamic/freer Bibles (REB & NJB) are British. Whether that says something about our national differences, I'm not sure.
The real key is to insist on a Bible with the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical Books so you get the so-called "lost books" of the Bible. Store clerks may not know the difference, but if you demand the Roman Catholic edition, you will probably get the right thing.
A few years ago I bought a paperback copy of NRSVwithA/D for $6.45 from CBD (http://www.christianbook.com). It's still in the shrink wrap. I found the BIG hard bound one mentioned above.
Hope this helps,
--
-
The
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
Justin wrote: If Arius had won the dispute in the fourth century (which he almost did),
If you check into it, I think you will find Athansius was banished four times (or was it five) for his views. Each time he bounced back.
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
eljefe quoted:
Therefore, the oldest papyri containing most of the books of the New Testament were written at least 120 years after the originals were composed, and the oldest complete New Testament manuscript postdates the original autographs by at least 220 years.
Yes, considering how fragile those writing materials were that's quite amazing! Those of us you took two years of Latin in high school remember translating Caesar's Gallic Wars in our second year. Caesar wrote it about 40 B.C.E. and the oldest know copy is dated about 950 C.E. -- that's about 1000 years between the original and our oldest copy. During that 1000 years it was not "lost." People read and quoted from it all the time. But, because ancient writing materials were so fragile, we now have no copies of this 2000 year-old document that are much older that about 1000 years. What does that prove? It proves ancient writing material were fragile!
It does not prove someone forged Caesar's name to the document ... nor that it has been "tampered with" during the dark ages .. nor that our extant copies are corrupt ... nor that extant copies are unreliable. So, what?
eljefe further opined:
I have more confidence in the "apocrypha" not having been changed than our current cannon.
[email protected] opined:
Welcome to the world of John Dominic Crossan! (AKA La-La-Land) If you see him, tell Historical Jesus I said, "Yo, d00d." (Oops, I forgot. His carcass fell off the cross and was eaten by dogs, so he never was buried or resurrected, was he? Oh, well. Tell Crossan I said, "Jesus is L ORD !")
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
Double Edge called attention to this link:
I saw that show on the history channel....very interesting. Here's a link that will show you some of the "lost" books: http://www.carm.org/lostbooks.htm
[email protected] (keeps on blabbing):
Nice link! I just looked at the first page for a few seconds but it seems adequate as a starting point. It has two short lists of books often called "lost books of the Bible." Catchy title, huh? Mysterious, Esoteric, Clandestine!
Actually, the bottom list of 15 books is simply the books still in dispute among Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox. Depending on how you count the "books" (some are "additions" to Daniel, Esther, etc.), Roman Catholics have about a dozen more books in their Bibles than do Protestants. Eastern Orthodox have a few more than the Roman Catholics. (So, the truth is, the "process of canonization" has never been completed in the sense that everyone agrees on everything that should be in the Bible.) Many "Complete" Bibles on the market today contain all these 15 "lost books." Ecumenism is here!
The top list on the link has 13 "lost books" of the Bible. Of them, the first five are actually part of a larger group usually called The Apostolic Fathers. I have more than a dozen different English versions of the AF in my library (and three of four Greek editions). The AF have been available for a long time -- all in one slim volume. Perhaps the most widely distributed translation in America is the Michael Holmes revision of J.B. Lghtfoot's translation. (I have extra used copies of several different translations I will gladly sell to anyone interested.)
The last eight "lost books" in the top list on the link are well-known, widely distributed individual books from the New Testament Apocrypha (mentioned in another post). So, as the link itself points out, they are hardly "lost." Besides, you can get all of them right there on that link -- how lost is that?
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
William Penwell said:
I have now read books that give the other side of the story ... Believe it or not but I would prefer to hear both sides of an issue and make my own mind up about it and not be clouded by preconceived ideas.
[email protected] shot off his mouth:
No disrespect intended, but it seems to me that if you think every story has two sides, your mind is already clouded by preconceived ideas. Many stories have three, four, and five sides -- some have dozens, or more.
I suggest that now that you know both sides of the story, look around and learn a couple of more sides. (I need to do the same.)
--
i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.
it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.
this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?
Robdar asked:
What makes you think that we are sinners? Why is being human being sinful?
[email protected] thought:
Ain't nothing sinful about being human. Take yer basic Jesus for example.
On the other hand, I don't need proof I'm a sinner. You can speak fer yerself.
--
