There's no such thing as hijacking on my threads. They are for whatever useful purpose they can serve. Discussion topics are ice breakers, in my view. So, feel free to jump in any time.
Posts by Terry
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10ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?
by Terry inthe intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.
it really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.. however, be warned!
human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine.
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10
ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?
by Terry inthe intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.
it really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.. however, be warned!
human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine.
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Terry
I have never been lied to by who I am studying with and have always been told to go and make my own mind up.
____________________Not to put too fine a point on it: Lying is saying the opposite of what you believe to be true.
Your JW study is not aware they are communicating non-factual information.
Let's move on to the relevant matters for consideration.
1. Statistically, you have a 1 in 40,000 chance of finding the "True" religious denomination in Christianity alone. (That's approximately how many different "true" interpretations have given rise to all those denominations.)
2. Where is your skepticism over the inescapable fact that every Christian is looking at the very same data (Bible) and coming to separate conclusions? Red Flag! Can this be a signal to your intellect that something just possibly might be wrong with the data itself? If you say, "No" you'll have to explain why. There is an ancient book compiled by a Greek fellow named Euclid back in the 4th-century B.C.E. The Encylopedia says: "His Elements is one of the most influential works in the history of mathematics, serving as the main textbook for teaching mathematics (especially geometry) from the time of its publication until the late 19th or early 20th century."
Here is the difference between this manmade book and the Bible. (Pay attention) Every person from every society on Earth arrived at exactly the same conclusions about Euclid's theorems and axioms without contradictory opinions arising in 20 centuries. Do you see why the Bible is problematic and Euclid's Elements are not?
3. Being treated well is no indicator of fact. It is a social courtesy. Choose any group of weird beliefs and you'll find kind people who are friendly. Here is the TEST of that kindness and friendly treatment. IF YOU become a JW and discover their doctrine is corrupt and you speak out about it--you will NOT be able to withstand the negative treatment of shunning without an emotional scar. Your "friends" will instantly push a little button inside of their head and you'll be viewed as a filthy apostate unworthy of prayers and you'll deserve to die at Armageddon. Does that sound healthy or sane?
4. Being open-minded sounds nice, but do you have the same policy about your car door or the front door to you home? Isn't having a lock a healthy skepticism of the existence of bad intentions in some people who might take advantage of those open doors?
5. Take a close look at the Venus Fly Trap. It is filled with sweet nectar which is appetizing and non-threatening to the fly until he is all the way in and the ill-fated victim is slowly dissolved inside.
Jehovah's Witnesses are required to be 100 percent LOYAL to their leader's interpretations (frequent mind-changers) no matter how radical. You will have no individuality, human rights or freedom of speech or access to your personal conscience once you are inside.
The history of this religion is a highway littered with wreckage and broken promises.
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Why do you assume you are able to detect the existence of CULT behavior when you have absolutely no experience of having been inside one?
Cults are distinguished by the CONTROL they exert over your life, your language, your friends
your reading material, you private life and every thought you will ever think.
If thousands and thousands of pedophiles protected with a veil of secrecy doesn't convince you of the covertsecrecy and dishonesty of Jehovah's Witnesses, maybe you need to ask yourself why that doesn't seem to
matter to you.
You have a choice today because you are not a member. Once you are inside, you will have NO CHOICE except
the one of complete obedience and subservience.
I spent two years in prison convinced I was serving God. I was wrong. I was serving the whims of men. -
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ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUSPICIOUS, CYNICAL and WRONG? IF SO, WHY?
by Terry inthe intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.
it really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.. however, be warned!
human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine.
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Terry
The intellect gives us our powers of conception, judgment, and free choice in the way which has separated humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom. It really works and this is proved by the fact we are out of the food chain dominating all other species.
However, be warned! Human intellect is not a perfectly functioning machine. It will not function properly if it processes raw data corrupted in any way or incomplete. As any computer engineer will tell you: Garbage in = garbage out.
Honesty is seeing things as they really are--then dealing with them realistically
INTELLECT REQUIRES HONESTY or the human animal goes astray into suspicion, cynicism, false conclusions and a brooding herdlike dependence.
_________________________INTELLECTUAL HONESTY says: "I am willing to be wrong if the facts go against even my most cherished beliefs."
Ask yourself this question: ARE YOU WILLING TO BE WRONG?
Without a willingness to be wrong (who can always be right?) no room for personal growth is possible.
You can't climb from the bottom of ignorance to the top of wisdom without a vast stairway of many levels requiring many steps. To move up, you must abandon the lower steps to reach the highest ones.
MAN'S GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT IS PROGRESS THROUGH SELF-EXAMINATION
HOW DO WE AVOID BEING INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST?
1. LISTEN TO PEOPLE with whom you disagree. Really listen. Why? Because you were once a Jehovah's Witness and had all the answers and all the Truth--but you were dead wrong. You tuned out what others said when they objected to your certainty WHAT IF YOU HAD DONE YOUR OPPOSITION RESEARCH with an OPEN MIND? Still-in JW's refuse to hear what their opposers say automatically contemptuous and suspicious. We cannot afford to be deaf, blind and stupid the second time. You have nothing to lose but your smug complacency by listening to your opponents.
2. TEST YOUR SOURCES. When we were Jehovah's Witnesses we thought the Bible (and ultimately, Jehovah) was our source of knowledge, truth, and wisdom WE WERE WRONG! We had become blind to the startling fact it was all coming from FALSE PROPHETS pretending to channel Truth from heaven. Had we listened to CRITICAL ANALYSIS by actual Bible Scholars (instead of letting the GB do it for us) we'd quickly have become alert to problems with authenticity in the scriptures themselves. A red flag would be the wake-up call.
3. BECOME A RATIONAL, NON-CYNICAL SKEPTIC. When we were Jehovah's Witnesses, we sneered at all human society except for the New World society. Why? JW's are taught to be untrusting, suspicious, dark-minded and smug. However, a rational thinker looks for data, facts, and solutions from any source as long as it's testable and peer-reviewed without bias.
4. STUDY CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECTS by reading opposites sides of the debate. When we were Jehovah's Witnesses our reading and viewing material was censored. The label of "worldly" poisoned research. Independent thinking was forbidden. This left us vulnerable to emotional manipulation. The quotations published in JW reading materials were filtered, clipped and rendered corruptly so contrary viewpoints by neutral authorities would not reach us with potency. When we study any topic, we need to know what opponents EACH set forward, to examine the data set, and become aware of the weakness on BOTH sides.
5. SELF-AWARENESS of your limits. Face the fact you are flawed, subjective, ill-informed, unskilled and over-confident while at the same time thinking you are objective, intelligent, and smarter than most others. THAT'S HUMAN NATURE. Get over yourself! As Jehovah's Witnesses, we considered ourselves as sharp, quick-minded experts on absolute truth. We were dead wrong! But old habits die hard. Cultivate humility and seek to become aware of just how dumb being a JW has made you! Without humility no persona can learn. Your opinion is important to YOU but everybody else thinks you're an idiot. They are probably partially right some of the time :)
6. LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT. Have you ever met a JW Elder who left any room for doubt that what he was saying was the be-all and end-all of knowledge? Weren't you that way at one time?Next time you offer an opinion try ending your sentence with room for doubt. "Your mileage may vary, of course" is a phrase I try to cultivate. You remind yourself you aren't a damned expert. It invites others to sharpen your remarks with additional and perhaps more accurate commentary. If you are so cocksure--you shut out your only chance to receive correction for smarter people. Doubt your facts and you'll seldom end up wrong. If you are skilled at debate it is an especially easy trap to fall into sounding like you are an encyclopedia of wisdom when actually you're only a deft counterpuncher.
7. EXCHANGE HOPE for FAITH and you'll avoid ignorance and heartbreak. What Hope offers is a positive and confident mental attitude which reassures an outcome while simultaneously leaving room for the possibility things won't turn out. On the other hand, Faith destroys objectivity and forces delusional dependence on wishful thinking which can destroy you when it falls apart. As Jehovah's Witnesses, we discovered this in 1975. Read the following quotation and try not to gasp at the insanity of what is being offered to millions of Jehovah's Witnesses looking forward to 1975.8. AVOID PERSONAL ATTACKS and rely on facts. The Jehovah's Witness first line of defense against their enemies is to label them "mentally diseased", wicked, Satanic, worldly and Apostate. Instead of rationally listing objections and methodically offering counter-proofs as refutations, the Governing Body exposes themselves to be weak, dishonest and tyrannical. If you are on the side of genuine truth, you should be able to defeat wrong statements with sources factually accurate. You know an opponent is out of ammunition as soon as they revert to name-calling. The number one signal of a dishonest debate is the attempt to shut down all two-way discourse by a pejorative label. Look for the word "ridiculous" because it can often reveal an empty rebuttal.
9. LOGIC is essentially a test of NON-CONTRADICTION. As Jehovah's Witnesses, our view of Truth was crippled by constantly changing absolutes. If something is true, it doesn't need changing from one certainty to its own opposite certainty. This is why Science is provisional and constantly seeks tests of falsifiable principle. In the last few years, the religious denomination of Jehovah's Witnesses had been erased and redrafted WITHOUT ANY MEMBERS NOTICING. Why? Their rational mind is like a house with the burglar alarm wire cut by burglars. They are intellectually defused, blind to the many contradictions with previous core 'truth.'
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Having no clear view of alternatives, Jehovah's Witnesses are blinded. On top of that, having a smug self-assured attitude has made them closed off to the possibility of being self-deceived. Finally, by refusing to open themselves up to the possibility of being wrong, they refuse to self-examine for intellectual dishonesty. This has rendered the members of this religion very depressed, nervous, fearful and blocked from their native potential to lead healthy and happy lives.
No progress is possible for JW's until they become humble enough to be wrong when the facts go against them. -
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THE LINGERING SHADOW OF '75
by Terry innone of you are old enough to have been there, i suspect.
i had been in prison two years as a jw conscientious objector when the exciting news about 1975 spread like wildfire.i was paroled from prison in 1969 and immediately began pioneering.
the pressures began mounting throughout the organization.
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Terry
Naoscillator17 minutes ago
Terry, I know somebody who knew Lonnie Payne___________________I bet I know that somebody as well! -
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THE SHADOW OF 75 still hangs over us all . . .
by Terry infew of your are old enough to have been there, i suspect.
i had been in prison two years as a jw conscientious objector when the exciting news about 1975 spread like wildfire.. .
i was paroled from prison in 1969 and immediately began pioneering.
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Terry
I often wondered about those who were imprisoned as a conscientious objector .Did you have family who were J.W.`s and supported you ? Or were your family not J.W.`s and wondered about your decision .?
How did you cope with your imprisonment for 2 years ? Obviously you were still a firm believer , after coming out you went and pioneered .
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None of my family were JW's, nor were they churchgoers. They thought I was insane. They were right :)
My Mom and Stepdad drove once a week from Ft.Worth to Seagoville to the Federal Facility for visits. Of course, I spent that time witnessing to both of them!
At one point in prison, there were about 40 of us (J-Dubs) in for the same thing. We had formed 2 congregations and had 5 meetings a week.
I began studying with a small group in a private study with a brilliant Brother named Tollie Padget. We went through all the old publications in depth and began learning the "deeper things."I would sneak into the Catholic rectory when the rest went to eat at the Mess Hall. Why? There was a grand piano in there. I had always wanted to learn how to play. So, instead of eating, I taught myself piano.
Every inmate is assigned a work detail for the purpose of keeping the Federal facility as self-sustaining as possible. I was assigned to the Construction crew which was not aptly named. We broke down old walls and smashed the bricks into tiny bits, we excavated roads, flipped hundreds of bags of cement; grunt work is what it was.(Note: That isn't my face on the cover. That was the first drawing I ever did when I was High School.
I chose that drawing because my ability as an artist is what really led me to break away and seek a career in California instead my janitor job in Fort Worth earning minimum wage.)
It took me a helluva long time, but I finally wrote the whole story in my book. You can find it on Amazon.
"I WEPT BY THE RIVERS OF BABYLON (A Prisoner of Conscience in a Time of War)
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OKAY, GAME OVER! The number one reason the New Testament amounts to bunk
by Terry infor me, the dead giveaway is this.
jesus wrote nothing.. stop and think about that.. if jesus were the authentic messiah, his ministry would not simply be local.. his instructions, his mission, the details of his teachings would be too precious to risk leaving it in the hands of "men unlettered (illiterate) and ordinary (blue-collar yokels).".
jesus, were he the one and only hope of mankind, would be absolutely certain to write down with great simplicity and specificity the exact owner's manual necessary to rescue mankind.. never happened!.
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Terry
The Book of Revelation was made scripture three centuries after the death of Christ.
"Traditionally attributed to St. John, most Biblical scholars now recognize its literary style and its theology has little in common with John's gospel or his epistles and was likely written after his death. Martin Luther found the vindictive God of Revelations incompatible with the gospels and relegated it to the appendix of his German translation of the New Testament instead of the body of scripture. All the Protestant reformers except Calvin regarded apocalyptic millennialism to be heresy."The above is merely a sticky note to remind you how truly Ad Hoc our beloved New Testament really is. Consequently, pouring your entire life and every waking thought into an unexamined belief in your own particular interpretation of the Bible is practically suicidal. At the very least, it is a wasting of your time. Time= Life.
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Richard Carrier - End of the World Failed Christian Prophecies
by Finkelstein inan interesting talk on the inherent history of jewish and christian beliefs.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_pb8pkews8.
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Terry
It is a tribute to Ego how Christians are the center of their own Universe.
The entire history of everything puts "today's" Christian at the climax.
"Today" is, of course, every day since day 1.
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OKAY, GAME OVER! The number one reason the New Testament amounts to bunk
by Terry infor me, the dead giveaway is this.
jesus wrote nothing.. stop and think about that.. if jesus were the authentic messiah, his ministry would not simply be local.. his instructions, his mission, the details of his teachings would be too precious to risk leaving it in the hands of "men unlettered (illiterate) and ordinary (blue-collar yokels).".
jesus, were he the one and only hope of mankind, would be absolutely certain to write down with great simplicity and specificity the exact owner's manual necessary to rescue mankind.. never happened!.
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Terry
Check out the discussions, debates, and arguments offered by Dr. Richard Carrier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U -
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OKAY, GAME OVER! The number one reason the New Testament amounts to bunk
by Terry infor me, the dead giveaway is this.
jesus wrote nothing.. stop and think about that.. if jesus were the authentic messiah, his ministry would not simply be local.. his instructions, his mission, the details of his teachings would be too precious to risk leaving it in the hands of "men unlettered (illiterate) and ordinary (blue-collar yokels).".
jesus, were he the one and only hope of mankind, would be absolutely certain to write down with great simplicity and specificity the exact owner's manual necessary to rescue mankind.. never happened!.
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Terry
You know the NT writers' words (so that you get a sense of the complete person and mission) about Jesus varies little.
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So YOU say.
.You know what "Fan Fiction" is?
The Middle East swarmed with such stories for many centuries as we find collated into the New Testament. Why are we simply going to assume the carefully selected NT are authentic descriptions of reality?
Do you know--that is, are you AWARE of the controversies over proper selection among the thousands of Messiah texts? Who did the selecting? Do you know? Why do you trust those particular selections other than the fact it is ALL you know of?
KJV Bibles have 39 books in the Old Testament, all originally written in Hebrew. However, the Old Testament of the NAB contains 46 books, including an additional seven (Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch) which were part of an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. These seven books are variously referred to as the “apocryphal” or “deuterocanonical” books and are usually placed between the Old and New Testaments. In this sense, it can be said that Catholic Bibles have more books in them than Protestant Bibles (here represented by the KJV).
Should I assume your Bible, the one you use, contains ALL the proper books? If not--WHY NOT?
Did you know Martin Luther at the start of the Protestant Reformation wanted to EXCLUDE the following books from the authentic canon?
1. Luther did not include the deuterocanonical books in his Old Testament, terming them "books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read"2. Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon
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Why do you suppose there were (still are) controversies?In other words, HOW CAN YOU SO CASUALLY RECOMMEND other people simply accept the accuracy of the stories and descriptions and teachings from such ancient writings with such complacency?
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WHILE I WAS PRAYING . . .
by Terry inone night a long long time ago .
.. i distinctly remember lying in my bed staring at the shadows on the ceiling and saying my prayers to jehovah while becoming annoyed with myself at how rote and over familiar my thoughts had become.. it just didn't feel authentic.
i steeled myself to the task and began again, apologizing for the insincerity!.
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