Danny Im the SDA authority here but Im going to let you off this time. Des Ford is a great scholar and well known among SDAs.
Des has two doctorates in theology he is a fine christian.
I remember once Des said Its just as important for a christian to think as it is for him to pray. And also truth is rarely found in times of religious fervour.
My Mum went to college with Des
Posts by barry
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1380The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
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barry
This is what happened to a telemarketer who took me on about 6 months ago.
Barry, Can I help you ?
Telemarketer, Are you the owner of the buisness
Barry ,yes
Telemarketer, There will be a reduction of fees for youre phone service.
Now I know what this call is about and someone from overseas is on the line
Barry, Please you know Im the manager of the buisness here please may I talk to the manager there is he in? I will only deal with youre manager
Telemarketer, He isnt here zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I here nothing from the other end
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
Im just reading Matthew 24 and I find some things I would like 3W to explain.The question by the diciples is ' What will be the sign of youre coming and th end of the age? The answer by our lord being the gospel will be preached in all the world and then the end will come.' The other answer to this question being 'the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light the stars will fall from heaven and the heavenly bodies will be shaken' then we have in verse 30 'At that time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky.'
Please note there will be wars and rumors of wars, but such things must happen but the end is still to come, there will be famines and earthquakes in various places , all these are the beginning of birth pains,
Note these passages dont point to a war 1914 as being the sign of christs coming or to earthquakes. Is the JW interpretation flawed in the understanding of this chapter? I also read in this chapter I anyone tells you he is out in the desert or here he is inth einner room , do not beleive it.
I also read that this generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled. The meaning of this being as I understand that if the gospel had gone to the world at that time Christ would have come then. Thus how important would have been Daniel 4 in those circumstances.?
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
Thirdwitness, how would you interpret this passage?
1 Thessalonians v13 on
Brothers ,we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We beleive that Jesus died and rose again and so we beleive that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the lords own word , we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the comming of the lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that , we who are still alive and are left will be cought up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we willl be with the Lord forever.Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Is this the event that occured in 1914?
Note the passage says the people who have died in christ will be cought up together with those who are alive on the earth.
How does this fit with 1914 and JW theology? -
1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
Thanks for youre postings Third witness you may be supprised to know I agree with you on the word shabuwa the word means a seven but that can be a seven of anything. It could mean a seven of days weeks months or a seven of marbles.As I mentioned before it is the context which decides what it is a seven of. As I also mentioned before it is the context which is important to explain this chapter it is not the use of the day year principle in fact most scholars dont use the day year rule in this chapter but still get the result of 490 years by looking at the context.
Consider the following. Daniel in chapter 9v2 is praying to the lord in fasting and in sackcloth and ashes and thinking about the 70 years of desolation of Jerusalem by the end of Daniels prayer the angel Gabriel is sent to Daniel. The Angel says in our lingo 'Look Daniel 70 years might sound a lot but there will be seven times that long for things to be settled. As I said before other churches beleive this prophecy is for 490 years but they dont use the day =year to do it.
The Adventist church uses the rule to interpret 1844 and the 1260 days as years some use it with Daniel 9 but most commentries interpret 490 years here without application of that rule. 1844 is also a big issue among Adventists it may be an important date to Adventists but you wont find it in the bible. The same can be said for 1914.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
Im looking forward to Alan f writing on parousia. Thirdwitness you havent explained anywhere in the bible where the day -year rule is used some beleive it is used in Daniel 9 and thats why I brought it up in my posts at least twice.
So I want to get it straight the rule says when interpreting predictive prophecy when one day is mentioned in the prophecy that equals one year. Is that correct?
So when our lord in predictive prophecy said this temple will be destroyed and in three days it will be rebuilt that means our lord was in the grave for three years. I think im getting the idear 3 days = 3 years. Why didnt I see it before.
Lets go to Daniel 4.32 Says 7 times, that is = seven years. No mention of days in this prophecy. The word day is not even there.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
Please do look at the context in Daniel 9 verse 1&2 Daniel understood from the scriptures given to Jeremiah the prophet that the desolution would last 70 years, from verse 4 to 19 Daniel is praying to the lord saying how they have rebelled and turned away from the lord . Verse 20 while Daniel was still in prayer Gabriel comes to give Daniel insight and understandind. In the context of all of this Gabriel declairs as soon as you started to pray an answer was given which I have come to tell you Seven times seventy are decreed for your people and youre holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin , to atone for wickedness.
Thirdwitness please read the context the day year rule is only required if you come to this with preconceived idears.
As I said before the SDAs would like to prove the day year rule as it would validate their other prophecys such as 1844. If you can solve the day year rule you could be of great service to them but you would have to do it in a scholarly way. Im an SDA who cant beleive the day year rule because its not in the bible. Its not found in any good bible commentarys either
I wait eagerly for youre answer but I wont hold my breath.
Barry
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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barry
As I mentioned before bible commentarys including the SDA bible commentary all say the 490 years of Daniel 9 are years because of the context. Daniel is thinking about the captivity of 70 years when the angel appears and declars there will be seven times the 70 years= 490 years. Where is the day for a year principle here? If you can answer Im sure the SDA church could arrange an excellently paid job for you and may put you on their Daniel review committee. The SDA bible commentary specifically says the day year principle is not required to interpret this scripture. The three and a half years was once interpreted by the WT to be 1260 years 538 to 1798 being the dark ages if I remember correctly. Some on here may be able to look up refferences.
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How to be well treated after leaving JWs
by barry inmy dad a lay preacher in the sda church is staying here in canberra and has some idears about how to be well treated by the elders of the jws.
a member from the nowra church and the pastor came to my dads church for services and they went to my dads house for lunch.
it turned out the member from nowra was a former jw member.
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barry
Am I on to something here? Would it have worked in youre situation?
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How to be well treated after leaving JWs
by barry inmy dad a lay preacher in the sda church is staying here in canberra and has some idears about how to be well treated by the elders of the jws.
a member from the nowra church and the pastor came to my dads church for services and they went to my dads house for lunch.
it turned out the member from nowra was a former jw member.
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barry
My Dad a lay preacher in the SDA church is staying here in Canberra and has some idears about how to be well treated by the Elders of the JWs. A member from the Nowra church and the pastor came to my Dads church for services and they went to my Dads house for lunch. It turned out the member from Nowra was a former JW member.My father got talking to this member about his experiances with the JWs and he was disfellowshiped and had been treated badly as so many here have.
When the JW elders heard this ex JW was going to be Baptized in the SDA church and the JW elders heard about it their attitude began to change and they wanted him back in the Kingdom Hall, no shunning, no disiplinary action.
The ex JW then put the elders in their place and told them in no uncertain terms that there would be no possibility of him rejoining the JWs
When I heard the story I thought thats the answer because its only when JW ex members have no friends or relatives that will even talk to they feel they are in charge but when someone asserts themselves and joins a new community the JWs now their power is lost.