a few reasons we can know that we have the same bible that was used by early christians are as follows: in 1611 king james ordered that the bible be put into the language of the people.
the earliest manuscripts they had at the time were, for the old testament about 8th century ad, and for the new testament, about 11th century ad.
in 1947 in the caves in qumran above the dead sea, there were discovered over 200 clay jars in over 200 caves, scrolls, which made up the entire old testament.
Hello agentperson,
thanks for your reply. I try to
keep an open mind, which I
often find very difficult. So
my reply to your original was
a good "vent" for me. Keep
the dialogue going it helps us
all to "stay awake". In that
regard I am a faithful follower
of Miss Java Goddess. YES.
battman
of the caffeine class
all this talk about whether door to door work is fruitful or not has really got me thinking.. so i was wondering, (a) how many jw's or ex's here were actually converted on the door, and (b) how many jw's or ex's here ever obtained a convert on the door?.
i made 2 converts whilst a jw, but 1 was the son of an interested person, the other was a wayward son of a weak sister so i get a zero.. my dad worked at london heathrow as an air traffic controller, he got 6 other controllers to join up, so if you're arriving in the uk, don't fly apostasy airways!
for all his frequent bouts of vac pioneering, i don't think that he ever pulled a live one off the doors, so he gets a zero too.. my mum was quite a puller in her time but they were all friends of friends who came to sit in on bible studies etc, so, sorry mater, you get a zero also.. as a matter of fact, i'm wondering if the door to door work isn't completely pointless!.
IMHO I feel the D2D has a point, a very sharp point.
It is about the size of a rafter and it is
blinding the eye of the R&F. I finally pulled one
out of my blind eye and "I can see, I can see, I can see.
Also it is not even scriptual. Check out the Kingdom
Interlinear vs Emphatic Diaglott at Acts 20 and see the
different renderings. For $um reason the FDS choose
the King James version of house to house.
The point here is that yes the "Truth" will set you free
but you must get rid of that splinter/rafter.
Thanks to all for your excellent, insightful and often very
humorous posts.
battman
a few reasons we can know that we have the same bible that was used by early christians are as follows: in 1611 king james ordered that the bible be put into the language of the people.
the earliest manuscripts they had at the time were, for the old testament about 8th century ad, and for the new testament, about 11th century ad.
in 1947 in the caves in qumran above the dead sea, there were discovered over 200 clay jars in over 200 caves, scrolls, which made up the entire old testament.
Hi Agent,
Your argument sounds good to me!! I am a salesman and I
tend to believe whatever I hear and esp so what I read.
Can be a serious fault for sure. That is why I love this
board. Tuff to slack off here, esp. with a 'tude, more so
with a spurious argument.
Many many of the posters here are able to intellgently
dissect an argument find its valid points and of course
its fallacies. I always have had some doubts but wanted so
badly to believe. As you will read below it seems to me that
bible truths and esp. scriptual proofs just go 'round and
'round. IMHO for many of the scriptures quoted as "proof" of an
argument I can quote a scripture with an different/opposing
viewpoint. Help. (trying to open my semi closed brain)
I am just beginning to figure out for myself what
I can relie on and after some serious study I
discovered the more I studied the more confused
I became. Some of these arguments can go on
forever with an equal amount of "scriptual
proofs" on each side of the deabte when actually
there may be a third, or more, perfectly sane
explanation.
This is known as "Hobson's Choice Fallacy"
in logical thinking. Enter 'fallacy faq's'
into any search engine for a complete discussion
of all the retorical fallacy of which the CC of J W
makes extensive use,. Hobson's Choice is to present
your argument as either it's black or it's white.
Rarely true as so much of life is a wide expanse of grey,
but given in an emotional case seems very powerful. I fell
for this toooooo many times. I just wanted to believe!!!
I received "new lite" when I was doing a word for
word comparison of, WT literature, Emphatic Diaglott (E.D.)
vs. Kingdom Interlinear. I was studying in Act 20:20 and
discovered that the exact same greek word was rendered
as (big) houses in the E.D. and then rendered as "house to house"
in the K.I.
At that moment the little boy pulled his finger out of the dike and
I was washed away. One tiny, tiny flaw and it all tumbles down.
Further study showed that the K.I. "house to house" definition came
from the, are you ready for this?, are you sure?? really sure???
The despictable, error riddled, blah, blah, blah King James version.
God I hate when that happens!!!! I mentioned this to an elder,
fromer Bethei lite, and his retort was that "even the WT used to publish
the KJ version". no s..., but he didn't answer the question, of course.
So why does the "org"," society", etc. continue to "promote" this
blaaatant falsehood. "follow the money dummy, follow the money"
In the "United" book the Tower teaches me that the NT is written
primarily for the "annointed/144k, FDS (fem deordant spay) so Paul's
words were to them stating that he Paul taught them "pubikly",
in their temples and in their (big) houses ie: meeting halls. This is
almost universally accepted by mature/serious (genuine) bible
scholars. Not "door to door" rendering. (follow de $$$$$$).
Advertize (sell), Advertize (sell), Advertize (sell) the organization.
The WT used to
teach pubiclly up to 1975. They had real public lectures, records and
even radio broadcasts. All long gone, they have gone underground
even tho most people know them as d2d peeps that is not where the
growth comes from, its from networking almost exclusively. Another
poster was trying to compare the WT to a real corp. No way!!!
A real business would dump d2d business model ie: Fuller Brush, and adopt
the new "no cost/super efficient" media of the "net". Why not????
(just follow the $$$$$$$$$.)
So on one hand (black side) the NT is for the r&f as a "motovational stick" d2d ($$$$$$)
but (the white side) only written to the FDS when its time to go to H................
This is not Hobson's Choice (black vs white).
Another explanation came to me from a reading of the introduction of
both w4w interlinear translations that
states clearly that due to 300 - 400 years of missing continuity, hundreds
of slightly differing versions, hundreds of differing translations and of couse
human (see above ex) bias/agendas and that ole imperfection thing then
what we have today is an SWAG work. (Scientific Wild A.. Guess).
I forgot to mention the WT editors credit Jah for a "little help" on their work.
Jah does little jobs? I guess no job is too big or too small.
battman
of the washed (away) or (up) class
but not of the job class
it's my 1st time to post here..i'm basically an open-minded person.
so it has always bothered me to think that there is only one true religion.i've always told this to my mom but she thinks otherwise.
i love my mom so much that i would do anything to make her happy but she knows that i have doubts.
Hi Gotcha,
I am just beginning to figure out for myself what
I can relie on and after some serious study I
discovered the more I studied the more confused
I became. Some of these arguments can go on
forever with an equal amount of "scriptual
proofs" on each side of the deabte when actually
there may be a third, or more, perfectly sane
explanation.
This is known as "Hobson's Choice Fallacy"
in logical thinking. Enter 'fallacy faq's'
into any search engine for a complete discussion
of all the retorical fallacy of which the CC of J W
makes extensive use,. Hobson's Choice is to present
your argument as either it's black or it's white.
Rarely true as so much of life is a wide expanse of grey,
but given in an emotional case seems very powerful. I fell
for this toooooo many times. I just wanted to believe!!!
I received "new lite" when I was doing a word for
word comparison of, WT literature, Emphatic Diaglott (E.D.)
vs. Kingdom Interlinear. I was studying in Act 20:20 and
discovered that the exact same greek word was rendered
as (big) houses in the E.D. and then rendered as "house to house"
in the K.I.
At that moment the little boy pulled his finger out of the dike and
I was washed away. One tiny, tiny flaw and it all tumbles down.
Further study showed that the K.I. "house to house" definition came
from the, are you ready for this?, are you sure?? really sure???
The despictable, error riddled, blah, blah, blah King James version.
God I hate when that happens!!!! I mentioned this to an elder,
fromer Bethei lite, and his retort was that "even the WT used to publish
the KJ version". no s..., but didn't answer the question, of course.
So why does the "org"," society", etc. continue to "promote" this
blaaatant falsehood. "follow the money dummy, follow the money"
In the "United" book the Tower teaches me that the NT is written
primarily for the "annointed/144k, FDS (fem deordant spay) so Paul's
words were to them stating that he Paul taught them "pubikly",
in thier temples and in their (big) houses ie: meeting halls. This is
almost universally accepted by mature/serious (genuine) bible
scholars. Not door to door rendering. (follow de $$$$$$).
Advertize (sell), Advertize (sell), Advertize (sell) the organization.
The WT used to
teach pubiclly up to 1975. They had real public lectures, records and
even radio broadcasts. All long gone, they have gone underground
even tho most people know them as d2d peeps that is not where the
growth comes from, its from networking almost exclusively. Another
poster was trying to compare the WT to a real corp. No way!!!
A real business would dump d2d business model ie: Fuller Brush, and adopt
the new "no cost/super efficient" media of the "net". Why not????
(just follow the $$$$$$$$$.)
So on one hand (black side) the NT is for the r&f as a "motovational stick" ($$$$$$)
but only (the white side) written to the FDS when its time to go to H................
This is not Hobson's Choice (black vs white).
Another explanation showed me that by a reading of the introduction of
both w4w books
states clearly that due to 300 - 400 years of missing continuity, hundreds
of slightly differing versions, hundreds of differing translations and of couse
human (see above ex) bias/agendas and that ole imperfection thing then
what we have today is an SWAG work. (Scientific Wild A Guess).
I forgot to mention the WT editors credit Jah for a "little help" on their work.
Jah does little jobs? I guess no job is too big or too small.
battman
of the washed (away) or (up) class
but not of the job class
my jw mum has chosen not to write a will.
as she has very little in the way of worldly goods, she has asked my brother and i to sell her possesions when the time comes, and give the money to "the congregation".
presumably the jw`s will decide suddenly that it`s now ok to talk to us df'd ones.. also, my mum has asked me to pack up all her 100's of wt books for presentation to the local congregation library.. now, i have to tell you that these books include the original watchtower and awake volumes.
Hello E-man,
Explain to Mum she should most definetely have a
will.!!!! If for some extreme misfortune, I hope not,
she is killed in an accident by someone with deep pockets
then her estate could be worth a considerable sum which
would need to be properly managed. Mo $$$$ for CC of WT.
Also I just had another thought about her "collection".
Since she has clearly, and reasonably, stated her desires
then have her insert "language" in her will regarding this
donation* arrangement. I am sure she would want her
material carefully cataloged, conserved, protected and
certainly available to all to search out the "beef in its
season". (Where is the beef???) As a c. 1884??? WT article
reasoned that "mature" Chreatians would be "encouraged"
to study and "mediate" on these fine scripual feeds.
What a fine arrangement to have these precious "Tooths"
on permanent display. Then it would be a "uncouncious
matter" for her congregation super shelpards to seek
God's finger, hand, arm to determine His will in the kind
faithful sister's humle offering.
*The Society has many arrangements for all sorts of
different donations. I am sure they would appreciate
her gift and would comply with her "exact" wishes.
Yes, I agree with the previous posts and in this manner
not only would you be folloing her wishs but by showing
her this "new lite" I feel she will be encouraged by the
refining process shown here.
The bable says, somewhere, that we should be decerning (sic)
and cunning. HEHEHEHEEHE. Just following orders booosssssss.
WT quote: "it is ok to do stuff like this in Theo warfare."
battman esq.
"of the "pyramid class"
1983 "avoid independent thinking .. how is such independent thinking manifested?
a common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by god's visible organization.
" {wt jan 15 1983 22}.
The Master became a legend in his lifetime. It was said that God once
>sought his advice: "I want to play a game of hide-and-seek with
>humankind. I've asked my Angels what the best place is to hide in. Some
>say the depth of the ocean. Others say the top of the highest
>mountain. Others still the far side of the moon or a distant star. What
>do you suggest?"
>
>Said the Master, "Hide in the human heart. That is the last place they
>will look!"
>
>Anthony de Mello, SJ
>
>
> Looking for God is like seeking a path in a field of snow; if there is
> no path and you are looking for one, walk across it and there is your
> path. --Thomas Merton
>
> Go to your bosom; Knock there, and ask your heart what it doth
> know. --Shakespeare (1564-1616)
i'm starting this thread because dedalus made such a good point in his post in the "what.
" thread.
i won't quote his whole post here, but here's the link:.
The Master became a legend in his lifetime. It was said that God once
>sought his advice: "I want to play a game of hide-and-seek with
>humankind. I've asked my Angels what the best place is to hide in. Some
>say the depth of the ocean. Others say the top of the highest
>mountain. Others still the far side of the moon or a distant star. What
>do you suggest?"
>
>Said the Master, "Hide in the human heart. That is the last place they
>will look!"
>
>Anthony de Mello, SJ
>
>
> Looking for God is like seeking a path in a field of snow; if there is
> no path and you are looking for one, walk across it and there is your
> path. --Thomas Merton
>
> Go to your bosom; Knock there, and ask your heart what it doth
> know. --Shakespeare (1564-1616)
in view of the thoughts for a day or so i believe, not being judgmental, these thoughts may apply.. for all of us:.
"healing touch".
apologizing is an esseniual skill that adults need to master by practicing over and over (so do jehovah's witnesses no matter what state in life he/she is to jehovah and jesus christ).
It is often the "coverup" not the crime/mistake that hurts the most IMHO
battman
last nite it was announced, a letter read, that the .
use of the term "christian congregation" would now.
be used instead of "watchtower".
Last nite it was announced, a letter read, that the
use of the term "Christian Congregation" would now
be used instead of "WatchTower". The phones at
Bethel will be answered as JW's instead of WT.
Now that there as so many corporations, as part of the
refining process, even the letter head says CC of JW.
The new Assembly Hall in West Palm Beach is also called
CC of JW's which was named that a year ago. See the
WT, ooopps, CC is moving "forward". More like sidewize
IMHO. A moving target is hard to hit and at that "they
are masters of .........
Simon, I like the new format. Thanks for all your efforts
and to all the other posters, also the humor is the best.
battman
what i find bemusing is, if there are any disfellowshipped ones in your hall they have to sit at the back.
now without getting into the merits/rights/wrongs of whether this should be still acceptable, where do they sit in your hall?
you see i seem to remember that they would sit on the back row, come in quietly just after the song and prayer and leave at the end just as quick.
Recent "insperation" may reveal to the more mature
that in love for the wayward and to reduce their
"time out" the following is considered:
1. row of stools in the corner, except if the hall has
"rounds" so instead of being cornered by that
"opposser" guy then precede to Chapter 3.
of Tract #17 (out of print you say?)
2. pointed hats required during time out
3. hand painted "dunce" sign to be worn around neck.
4. rite 500 times "I will not be so stupid as to either
get caught or open my big mouth.
5. right a 5000 word paper on the influence of the
Great Pyramid on your choice of the following two
A. Abraham (Lincoln that is)
B. Moses (not to include construction details)
C. Jimmy Carter (another great builder)
D. John Denver (famous pilot and religious critic)
E. fill in the blank
F. C Tazer Russelitel, duh Judge and the "fredster"
Neu Lite* indicated that your serious mature input is actually
welcomed here.
battman
*non-alcoholic of course. (burp)
