watchtower theology is propped up by proof texts.. if the texts are inspired, the watchtower claims it is empowered to reveal the meaning.. but--consider how flimsy, inauthentic and unprovable the foundation of this teaching really is.. .
consider the difference (if any) in meaning between these two renderings.. .
1.all scripture is inspired by god and useful for teaching, reproving and setting things straight.. .
dear Terry...
you said: " NEWSFLASH!! There are no ORIGINALS anywhere; they have been "lost" or destroyed. There exists ONLY copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of....oh, you get the idea."...the bible does tell us that there exists something similar to DNA replication when it comes to these things: 2 corinthians 3:1-5
love michelle
i would say that that would be impossible...given that jesus christ is simply an angelic being in wts eyes.. jehovah's witnesses have about as much a relationship with the angel gabriel as they do with jesus.. and, no...tacking on the name of jesus at the end of a prayer is not evidence of relationship..
ShadesofGrey... I don't think that Tammy is causing divisions...I think that she doesn't recognize a spirit of division for what it is. dear Tammy... you said: " Christ taught that we should listen and worship in spirit. So it is not that - the spirit - which is wrong. You just have to test the 'spirit of' what you are listening to or hearing. I think you test it against orthodo x y, yes? If I am uncertain, then I can test against the teachings of Christ; against mercy and forgiveness; and always love. I have no reason to test anything that I hear from Christ against denominational teachings or dogma. I couldn't do that. It feels too wrong to me. In truth, I don't have to test what I hear from Him at all... I just recognize His voice. His voice is never outside of mercy, forgiveness, or love. The only time I mess up is when I listen to someone else, including just myself. " ...but it seems that you will listen to any voice that doesn't disagree with your voice, but just because a voice speaks gently to you doesn't mean that it is the voice of the Good Shepherd. The voice AGuest hears, her lord who has chosen her to relate his thoughts to fellow posters here is unkind to any who say they don't agree with her. that voice seems to want AGuest to argue for the sake of arguement. I recall once when she was "led" to argue against Leolaia and Narkissos about the meaning of arch in the word archangel...that nonsense went on and on and it did NOTHING to bring glory to God or Jesus Christ. She did the same thing when argueing about the astringent properties of water. I don't need to show you how often she has called people "idjits"...I don't need to show you how her posts are peppered with malice towards the orthodox church or any organized religion. I don't need to show you how she insinuates that neither the bible nor any of the church fathers can be trusted because they only listen to man...naturally, if everyone would only "hear" her lord everything would be straightened out for the better...we would all agree with her!!! Now, my point is this...her lord is essentially leading her away from any normal communion with others who would want to follow Jesus Christ...Jesus Christ is in people who are leading thier lives in service to others in His name, Jesus Christ is in people who have led HOLY lives trying to imitate Him...being daily sanctified by the Spirit...cleansed of the filth in the world. AGuest swears that her lord is not part of a trinity...nor is his name Jesus...nor would he lead anyone to read the bible...and it is because of these things she says as well that I doubt very much that her lord is the Christ spoken of as the Saviour sent into the world, the passover Lamb...and the reason you should doubt too is because (among other things) her lord IS causing a division of the Spirit that has indwelt the church...like it or not the orthodox has been convicted by the Holy Spirit of the truth of the trinity and has taught this to their congregants for almost 2000 years...only a spirit of division would "resurface" at this time to draw people away...if the "mind of Christ" wants people protected from preditors the safest place to be is ensconced in a sheep pen...not wandering around on a spiritual journey "listening" for a voice. I had said before that I thought that you were in danger of being mislead by the same spirit that is misleading AGuest...you still are...you test the spirit by love, forgiveness and mercy...but do you test the spirit by truth?...Jesus was speaking the truth when He said that people would die in their sins (john 8:24)...you are not being non-judgemental by not telling people this you are over-riding the previous judgement that God has made...the gospel stalls at the start line if you wont stand to tell people they have been judged...BUT...there IS Good News. Have you ever asked yourself why AGuest sees her lord as a dead carcass that people gather around to eat?...don't you think that is contrary to scripture? to reason even?...wasn't Jesus going to give His disciples life?...life that He had within Himself from everlasting? If this makes sense to you then why?... You should know that what you do naturally doesn't lead to life...being nice, loving and merciful is not the same as repenting. There is a way that seems right to a man...but its end is the way of death. proverbs 14:12 I know that it goes against your idea of freedom...but, in fact, Jesus did set people over you who are to look out for you...and even if you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they are not there for your protection...like a child who wanders would be brought back into the yard by a loving guardian...that is what the Holy Spirit would have me do in regard to you...and AGuest.
love michelle
i would say that that would be impossible...given that jesus christ is simply an angelic being in wts eyes.. jehovah's witnesses have about as much a relationship with the angel gabriel as they do with jesus.. and, no...tacking on the name of jesus at the end of a prayer is not evidence of relationship..
dear Tammy...
you said: "So again, as in anything, one has to look into matters for themselves. (And if you have faith in One who can answer, then ask Him"....and..."I DO enjoy hearing a Jewish perspective because it is not 'clouded' in some of the things that 'christianity' has taught and dogmatized. So who knows the truth, other than the Truth, Himself? If I have questions, I ask Him. Anything else, from anyone, is equally prone to mistakes, misinterpretatin; simple belief or thoughts. Including my own thoughts/beliefs. Now some of those might be more or less reasonable than others... but again, there is no actual authority behind personal interpretation and personal reasoning.
To KNOW something; you must learn from someone who KNOWS... instead of someone who THINKS they know."...
what you said above sounds like circular reasoning...those of the early church (before the bible canon) who walked and talked with Jesus Christ have passed on their knowledge orally from one group of believers to another group or individual. These had also asked and prayed for discernment and knowledge before they taught others but the answers that they received allowed them to be in agreement with others...many others...you can call it dogma but the church called it protection from false teachers.
I've noticed that you do seem to put more stock in (and encourage others to believe what they "hear") what you have heard "personally" even if it disagrees with the majority...why is that?...(do you understand that is exactly what a spirit of division would do?) Why is it that you would "agree" to a spirit like this?...I just don't understand why you think your course is reasonable; that now, when we are told that there will be deceiving spirits you go after those [spirits] who would disagree with orthodoxy.
the apostle paul said this to the corinthians at the time he was talking about divisions in the Body and those who would go after those [spirits]who would divide: For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the END of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! corinthians 4:9-11
love michelle
...should we celebrate the memorial in our homes?
will you do it?
any ideas.
dear ShadesofGrey...
here are some things to ponder in regard to your last post on this thread.
the reasons I don't think that taking the elements is something that can be done or not according to whim are:
the bible tells us that Jesus has two natures. one fully human with a human will.(Son of Man) one fully God (Son of God)...(calling this latter essence "divinity" doesn't express the fullness of this nature [being self existant Spirit ]).....hebrews 9:14-15 expresses this thought
the bible also tells us that though we can be walking around we ARE dead in our tresspasses and sins...eph 2:1 (like our human parents adam and eve) gen.3:3
the bible also tells us that the Spirit makes us alive to God...(otherwise our spirit is dead to God; see above scriptures)...and we ARE a new creation (like our Father, Jesus)...again, hebrews 9:14-15 expresses this thought
Jesus says that most assuredly we must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to facilitate a resurrection of the body...(it is these tangible elements that we take in that causes us to remain in Him(body) and He remains in us(body)...communion of the saints...when we continue to do this we remain in communion with Him and because we do this with others we remain in communion with the body...His body...(note: because of these things it is not a dead carcass that we gather together around to eat, as AGuest asserts)
you will notice that Jesus said he who comes to Me shall never HUNGER(A) and he who believes in Me shall never THIRST (B). ...doing something is an act of the human will....believeing something is an act of the human spirit. In excercising faith in these TWO realms both physical and spiritual...one is IN complete union with the fullness of who Jesus is... john 6:35-39
(I think that because Jesus was so emphatic; repeating Himself again and again to make His point in this one gospel and that it IS a command directly FROM Him makes it clear that it was a very important article of "the faith" and that this ceremonial observance may have been SO OBVIOUS to the early church that those later disciples who decided on the canon didn't feel the need to include 4 different witnesses to it's validity)
love michelle
...should we celebrate the memorial in our homes?
will you do it?
any ideas.
dear N.drew...
you asked: "Being partakers with the son" can be accomplished without bread and wine...The original post asks about the custom of eating the unleavened bread in symbol of unity with God's son."...
does the fact that the jews quarreled about this very thing suggest that Jesus was talking metaphorically about a symbol?...Jesus said, "most assuredly...unless..."
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ [a] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned [b] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me [c] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, [d] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.(john 6:35-59)
love michelle
...should we celebrate the memorial in our homes?
will you do it?
any ideas.
watersprout said this: "By the Master saying ''the only way we can have everlasting life is to partake from Him'' is not judging. The Master judges no one, that Is for the Father to do. "...
ShadesofGrey quoted this: "John 5: 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father."...
the Father has already judged mankind in the garden...we will die. Jesus reminds us in John 8:24 that we will die in our sins. to believe Him and partake of His flesh and blood is to be bought back or redeemed from death (not sin) and washed clean of our sin...we are judged through(or by the righteousness of) Jesus Christ as righteous and are entitled to eternal life with Him in His kingdom because God is faithful and does not lie. So, if you deny who He says He is(the ONLY Saviour isaiah 45:15-17) you have been previously judged to die and that judgement stands.
love michelle
what is your opinion of prince nowadays?.
one of the worlds raunchiest rock stars, prince is in his stacked heels and flamboyant suit strutting from house to house around an ordinary suburban estate.. from: http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2010/07/06/prince-how-the-rock-legend-turned-his-life-around-115875-22384807/.
flanked by minders, he goes up a garden path, knocks on a door and politely asks the householder: would you like to talk about god?.
I have to say that I was a little "surprised" and disappointed at his concert in edmonton recently.
he has a huge catalogue of songs to choose from and he even mentioned this to the audience that night.
some of his popular songs he didn't play, some other songs he didn't play all the way through(medley) ...but some "controversial" ones he played right through from beginning to end ...that was a drag except that I could rest my hands from clapping cuz they were sore.
for the price of tickets I don't understand why he felt he had to ask the audience if we loved him...it was so obvious
+ the white flag with rainbow musical notes and an angel blowing a horn makes me wonder if he sees himself as... O nevermind......
love michelle
i would say that that would be impossible...given that jesus christ is simply an angelic being in wts eyes.. jehovah's witnesses have about as much a relationship with the angel gabriel as they do with jesus.. and, no...tacking on the name of jesus at the end of a prayer is not evidence of relationship..
hello!...
a few more thoughts I'd like to add regarding my last posts about the church (watchmen) seeing eye to eye or face to face (agreed/united) and singing (teaching) together...the chapters I had quoted in isaiah are in amongst the chapters which tell us about the suffering Servant chosen by God to bring israel back to God and be a light to the nations, free prisoners yet will be dispised by many. A Servant who will be an effective teacher. Yet rejected. A Servant appointed to proclaim good tidings. (Isaiah 49-61) Jesus seems to summerize in this account in John 13:6-8 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
I hear the statement "we can agree to disagree" on this forum regularily...which means you can't come to agreement...amos 3:3...if the Holy Spirit uses the church and the written word to teach people in hopes that they will "see" the living Word, how will we be effective if we can't agree on this?...how will anybody "see" Jesus in this ummm...disagreement?
the bible instructs us that biblically normative worship calls for unity. (ephesians 4:15-16) it also states that any that had gone out from that unity (of the body) were not of the body. (1 john 2:19)
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. acts 2:1-4
***back in the day when israel was united, all israel were 12 tribes***
And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal (there were 450 priests of OTHER gods), follow him.” But the people answered him not a word.
Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed.
And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”
Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!” (Amen!!)
and IMMEDIATELY there was the sound of ABUNDANCE of rain for the people!!
love michelle
i would say that that would be impossible...given that jesus christ is simply an angelic being in wts eyes.. jehovah's witnesses have about as much a relationship with the angel gabriel as they do with jesus.. and, no...tacking on the name of jesus at the end of a prayer is not evidence of relationship..
dear Terry...
you said: "Worship would have to begin with some personal idea that an "encounter" had taken place. With something AWESOME and REAL.
This encounter would be their own individual perception OR imagination OR delusion/hallucination, etc...
The EXclusion of others is what religion usually comes down to no matter what!
Why? Because the ludicrous idea that something can be PURE which consists of personal interpretation is above criticism!
GOD or CHRIST or KRISHNA or any other profound orgasmic paroxysm is ENTIRELY personal. Religion pretends it can be Externally judged, dictated, edited, decried or approved by human authority.
This is because humans rabidly insert themselves as GATEKEEPERS (usually for fee! or Power!)"...
I believe that's the reason for the church as a corporate body made up of individuals accountable to God AND each other. the church was started by Jesus and He allowed many people to witness the same awesome miracles(and if you read the accounts, Jesus says these miracles were done to bring glory to God or so that the witnesses would see the glory of God)...it wasn't one person here and one person there and another person somewhere else and then they all magicly found each other and...voila.
a random scenario is inconsistant with a loving God who wants to "sheperd" His people and have then know who He is....He decided to have a body to teach the truth about Him...and He created that body with the orthodox church. He created the church...the church gave us the bible...the Holy Spirit speaks through the church to interpret the bible, otherwise people can and do get the wrong interpretation...the random "mystic" is a metaphor for the one sheep who wanders who "He" would go out to find and bring back to the fold.
...the watchmen see face to face/eye to eye...and they "sing" together...
Your watchmen shall lift up their voices,
With their voices they shall sing together;
For they shall see eye to eye
When the LORD brings back Zion.
Break forth into joy, sing together,
You waste places of Jerusalem!
For the LORD has comforted His people,
He has redeemed Jerusalem.
The LORD has made bare His holy arm
In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see
The salvation of our God. (isaiah 52:8-10)
love michelle
i would say that that would be impossible...given that jesus christ is simply an angelic being in wts eyes.. jehovah's witnesses have about as much a relationship with the angel gabriel as they do with jesus.. and, no...tacking on the name of jesus at the end of a prayer is not evidence of relationship..
dear Vander...
please don't attempt to take the cheese and run away...
Therefore please hear this, you afflicted,
And drunk but not with wine.
Thus says your Lord,
The LORD and your God,
Who pleads the cause of His people:
“ See, I have taken out of your hand
The cup of trembling,
The dregs of the cup of My fury;
You shall no longer drink it.
But I will put it into the hand of those who afflict you,
Who have said to yoursoul,
‘ Lie down, that we may walk over you.’
And you have laid your body like the ground,
And as the street, for those who walk over.” isaiah 51:21-23
Awake, awake!
Put on your strength, O Zion;
Put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city!
For the uncircumcised and the unclean
Shall no longer come to you.
Shake yourself from the dust, arise;
Sit down, O Jerusalem!
Loose yourself from the bonds of your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion!
For thus says the LORD:
“ You have sold yourselves for nothing,
And you shall be redeemed without money.”
For thus says the Lord GOD:
“ My people went down at first
Into Egypt to dwell there;
Then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
Now therefore, what have I here,” says the LORD,
“ That My people are taken away for nothing?
Those who rule over them
Make them wail,” says the LORD,
“ And My name is blasphemed continually every day.
Therefore My people shall know My name;
Therefore they shall know in that day
That I am He who speaks:
‘ Behold, it is I.’” isaiah 52:1-6
love michelle
