Posts by myelaine

44

How Christian thinking was corrupted by Paul's clever explanations

by Terry in

when modern writers, thinkers, believers in christianity talk about their religion they are almost always depending on saul of tarsus (paul) rather than.

jesus.. there is a good reason for this.

paul wrote letters.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you quoted: "The High Priest was not a Pharisee, but a Sadducee, and the Sadducees were bitterly opposed to the Pharisees. How is it that Saul, allegedly an enthusiastic Pharisee ('a Pharisee of the Pharisees'), is acting hand in glove with the High Priest? The picture we are given in our New Testament sources of Saul, in the days before his conversion to Jesus, is contradictory and suspect." ...in galatians 1:14 paul states that he advanced in JUDAISM because he was exceeding zealous for the traditions of his fathers. the fact that he was zealous for the pharisee teaching and not the sadducee teachings doesn't mean that he couldn't or wouldn't join forces with the high priest to rout out the new christians. the saying is, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

paul had disagreements with the apostles about the need for the gentile christians to be "put under" the law as some of those laws seemed to be practiced in jerusalem but the JEWISH converts. it was these traditions that paul was against because he had spent his apostleship preaching grace or acceptance with God through JESUS (without conforming to the law)...his description of these other apostles as superfine was in regard to the fact that they had letters of recommendation and the congregation was impressed by that when, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."...and they had lost sight of the fact that it was paul who had taught them about their God and Lord and about the grace that is from Him...he thought of himself as their "father" in the faith. He was justifiably hurt AND concerned because these others could come in and sway the congregation to their way of "thinking" and the congregation could be so easily swayed...if they could be swayed in this way after all he had taught them, then what or who else might they be swayed by?...there is marked concern for the congregation .

you said: " his threat in 4:21, "Shall I come to you with a stick?""...actually he was asking the congregation if they wanted him to come in the same way as the superfine apostles...the "law" is considered the rod or "stick" by which a jewish person is judged see:ezekiel 20:37, isaiah 11:1-5 (being "under" the law, which the jewish apostles were trying to do to the gentile believers). paul continued in galatians 6:12-13 about how these ones were not preaching this for the good of the congregation. They were causing division in the "church"...whether they meant to or not, though it is unlikely because they did strive to be of the same Spirit. It is stated that paul continued to go to jerusalem and one would expect someone who taught about forgiving a brother would be the first to confront them and straighten things out. There is nothing to suggest that the church was irreparably divided over this issue as paul was ever willing to confront rather that cover up or gloss over.

love michelle

44

How Christian thinking was corrupted by Paul's clever explanations

by Terry in

when modern writers, thinkers, believers in christianity talk about their religion they are almost always depending on saul of tarsus (paul) rather than.

jesus.. there is a good reason for this.

paul wrote letters.

myelaine

dear Terry...

you said:

"Paul explains, explains, explains. He is the Professor, scientist, theologian and hard-nosed scold. He leaves no room for arguments. On the other hand, Jesus is vague and mysterious."...

Paul was a pharisee so he would have studied judaism and could have rightly been called a "professor" of judaism but when Jesus came he became a theologian...he progressed to the study of God.

If all you get from his explaination is this:

"Paul doesn't base his arguments and persuasions on Jesus. Paul uses Jewish theology!

Paul uses a Greek way of thinking, too.

Paul uses eisogesis (reading INTO the text) to make his doctrinal points. Quoting Jesus? Not necessary!

Paul was sent by the High Priest to end the sect of Jesus followers and he does this by co-opting their message and meaning. How? He convinces the Jesus splinter group that Jesus is the End Point of Judaism itself. By bringing both groups together there is no longer an "enemy". The pagan goyim steeped in Greek mythology (Thanks to Roman patronage) can accept Judaism with its demi-god, Jesus! Everybody can get along! Right? Wrong.

Then--history stepped in and destroyed MAINSTREAM JUDAISM...leaving only the "blended" messianic Jesus group!"...you've missed his whole point.

Paul was sent to the gentiles first of all so it shouldn't be a surprise that he would use the available "mindset" in his explainations. Paul, far from co-opting the greek mythology of demi-gods, was drawing on the OT theme of a Son and using that in relation to a Father...both notions present in the OT. But his protrait was not that of a supreme god and a demi-god. He sought to bring the real God to the people. He carried on and expanded the teaching of the OT prophets(where the pharisees didn't)...unlike the greeks and their gods of monologue...paul was teaching that the God of israel was in dialogue with man..."at various times and places God spoke to us through the prophets but at this time He has spoken to us through His Son" The irony is when paul went to mars hill and said he could see that they were very religious by all thier alters...and he noticed the alter to the unknown god...he COULDN'T preach an unknown god because God has made Himself known...most of the gods that were represented there were pretty much un-known (you never knew where you stood with them) as far as expecting any kind of reciprocity ie. blessing in return for worship. They were a fickle self-centered lot...weren't they? In contrast to the God of israel Who "drew up" His expectations, underlined the blessings toward those who followed, signed a covenant and never backed out.

Which brings us to Jesus (figuratively)...He is the fulfilment of that covenant when the jewish people couldn't keep up their end. God continued to reach out for dialogue even if they were always turning from Him. Jesus wasn't mysterious and vague...He said, "if you knew the Father you would know Me also"..."if you have seen Me you have seen the Father". He was the Word, a continuation of that dialogue between God and man that was started long ago when God chose a special people TO speak to and through. I think that because of the priestly "class" in Jesus time the dialogue that was desired had become a monologue. the priests instilled fear into the people as a means to control their power structure. Interestingly the last word from the OT prophets in the book of malachi 4:4-6 there is a warning stating that God would come and strike the earth with a curse(which I believe to be a withdrawing of His protection) if the hearts of the fathers aren't turned to the sons and the hearts of the sons to the fathers...a reinstitution of dialogue between the generations, so to speak. As a consequence of this NOT happening within the majority jewish population (because of the priests, mark 7:9-13) It came about that God did withdraw His protection just a He said and Jesus predicted in matthew 24:15-20 which did see a partial fulfillment in 70 AD specifically to those jewish people who hadn't responded to Jesus.(ie. entered into dialogue with God by His means)

anyway...you have suggested previously that your take on the worship of God is God demanding, "what have you done for me lately?"...which isn't the case. It is more like God replying..."what can I do for My beloved?"

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

you said: "Paul at least had the courtesy to speak the language of his hearers."...

ummm...you DID say that the Holy Spirit was working in you too 1 corinthians 2:10-13

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

I don't pick and choose willy nilly so much as lay precept upon precept.

you don't feel the need to warn anybody about something you don't choose to see, even though Jesus said it WAS so...I do feel the need to warn people about something I see AND Jesus said it WAS so...maybe this where you can comprehend that I do unto others as I would have them do unto me and you don't?

It is sincere concern and compassion coming from God poured out in me towards you. If it was no big deal why would I bother to act?...why did the prophets bother acting if it was no big deal?...why did Jesus bother telling us anything or even proclaiming His salvation and then following through with the action if it was no big deal? we all acted on what resonated with us as commands from God...it is known that the "things" concerning Him have a conclusion...it could be tonight. How can you "reason" through that and decide that I'm not using reason?...it's PERFECTLY reasonable to believe what Jesus says to be the truth...that is the foundation of my trust in Him!!...but maybe for you, not so much?!?!?

AND yeah, I do get my worldview from the bible...God does know the end from the beginning...and He saw to it that He didn't leave those who shared HIS worldview in the dark as to what is happening in that world regarding both celestial and terrestrial beings. ...He prepared a table before me, so to speak...I'm sure I don't have to apologise even if you regard it as "less than" your worldview in some way.

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

what do you find unreasonable in what I've said?

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear dgp...

this scripture suggests that God is intensely involved in the destiny of mankind and He wants mankind to be equally involved in the conclusion of that destiny. We all, together and individually, play a part in being accountable to God and each other in order to see benefit.

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

you said: "I am familiar with the bible MyElaine/Michelle. As a fellow defective, where did you get the idea that you could diagnose my failing?"...

well actually, it is a working of the Holy Spirit...you don't seem to be overly concerned with the urgency the times demand, (much like OT israel and the jewish population in jerusalem living around 70AD)...christians are told to redeem the time left...and there will be great tribulation...and unless the times were shortened , no flesh would be saved. matthew 24:21-22. In any other real life job that would be a failure to respond to your duty. The fact that Jesus has commanded His disciples to go into all the world and teach these things as the whole counsel of God should invoke a greater response BECAUSE failure to respond has eternal consequences, for you and any who may have been positioned to hear the message.

Anyway...you have read and know the bible but it is an entirely different perspective to look at mankind from Gods perspective. the law is a display of His attitude (ethos)...the prophets are a display of His attributes (pathos)...if you look at things from His perspective (through a working of the Holy Spirit) your failings ARE laid bare...by God.

That's the WAY to test the "spirits"...yours, mine AND ours...matthew 7:12

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear dgp...

you said: "The argument would need to be that God sees evil, yet he doesn't do anything about it. It expects God to be some kind of Jupiter Tonans who would send his lightning to punish the disobedient or the evil. I don't buy this, just as I don't think the Lord responds to your prayers."...

"When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land..." 2 chronicles 7:13-14...

...this scripture doesn't suggest punishment for disobedience so much as God withdrawing His divine protection and blessing over the land and the people...which, when restored because of an act of the people...results in healing.

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

you said: "Regarding worldview and participation in the community, I would have responded differently. I would say that worldview governs our actions. By our actions, therefore, we also have a sense of a person's worldview. It is obvious that you consider me in need of repair, and this is no doubt due to your worldview. Do you see most people as broken?"...

I believe we are all sinners in need of repair. I also believe that some are in need of repair more than others...those in other closed countries who haven't heard the gospel and may not hear it before their passing will be given salvation. Those who are born and raised in countries where the gospel message is proclaimed, but who willfully reject it, are in need of more repair...they have neglected a great salvation and that is a move AGAINST themselves because then satan steps in to blind their minds/hearts completely...2 corinthians 4:3-6.

I asked if you were worried about being lukewarm...I mentioned that scripture because I haven't seen any support from you on this forum towards those called to be evangelical who are fundimentalists...you have actually tried to shush them so to speak by poo pooing their method...in a way, drawing attention away from the message to bring the focus onto your...less critical "lukewarm" view. Does your worldview encompass an understanding of the ethos and pathos of God and His "stake" in humanity? Do you understand that He has asked AND enabled christians to be His hands and feet to mankind?

I'd like to bring your attention to ezekiel 3:17-18: "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand."

ALSO acts 20:26-31, 33-35: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears... I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive." ...

Now, I have no doubt that you don't see any love in the message that I have given...that is because it is a form of rebuke to you for being lukewarm...but, some would find food for thought and action in the words and ways of God...in revelation 3:16 Jesus is in essence saying that you are no longer "in" Him so, He spews you out... Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.... “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

love michelle

47

The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat in

an athiest argument for an uncaring or non-existent god is suffering, say, as in starving children.

i consider this a strawman argument but there you go.. the apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty.

the resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife.

myelaine

dear Janet...

you said: "What does a worldview have to do with what I am or am not doing in my larger community?"...

The correlation is in preparedness.

In matthew 24:25 Jesus said "see, I have told you beforehand." (prepare); in matthew 24:15 He says "when you see" (look); and matthew 24:16 He says flee (take action)...He also says He is coming in an instant in matthew 24:27 whether we are prepared or not.

This brings us to the parable of the ten virgins, matthew 25:3-6...some were prepared with oil and some were not.

Also speaking of remaining prepared to give light to the world:

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." matthew 5:13-16

Ephesians 5:13-17...the christian is instructed to wisely redeem the time left...

"But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Be very careful, then, how you live —not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is."

your statement was: "That whole armageddon thing has people looking for evidence everywhere. Can it be good to live every day as if this beautiful world is in steady decline?"...

So, if your "worldview" is one in which YOU can't see armageddon coming because you're not looking then YOU wont be prepared and YOU wont appreciate the need to help others prepare...it is like normalcy bias: "It causes people to underestimate both the possibility of a disaster occurring and its possible effects. This often results in situations where people fail to adequately prepare for a disaster, and on a larger scale, the failure of governments to include the populace in its disaster preparations. The assumption that is made in the case of the normalcy bias is that since a disaster never has occurred then it never will occur. It also results in the inability of people to cope with a disaster once it occurs. People with a normalcy bias have difficulties reacting to something they have not experienced before. People also tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic way possible, seizing on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation."...

Normalcy bias is quite a problem for someone who is a witness to Jesus Christ...because He also told us about the troubles that would befall mankind in the end...just before He returns.

My advice is: put some oil in your lamp.

love michelle

p.s. you also said this in your OP: "The apologists defence is that humankind has been given all the tools for health and prosperity, and has failed in their duty. The resultant victims will receive their reward in the afterlife. I consider this inadequate, but there you go"...I see eternal justice...