Posts by Magick

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

So who would the wise and faithful servant providing food to the household of faith in the end times? freyd

funny you should ask freyd.

this is part of the bath water that you can and should throw out. anyone can thumb through a bible and point at random and say "that's me! that's me! they're talking about me!"

look up the history of jehovah's witnesses and see who they thought fit the category of "faithful servant" at different times...and who was the "faithful servant" for hundreds (thousand?) years before russell (or his wife maria) pointed and exclaimed "that's me!"

russel is dead. so is rutherford. and so will a lot of old jehovah's witnesses... be dead soon who try to make this claim. (that's not a threat, merely an observance)

the witnesses say that the "faithful and discreet slave" refer to the remaining (living) portion of the group of 144,000 people who go to heaven.

how many are left? how many are actually "ruling" in bethel?

anyway. different translations read:

faithful and sensible slave
faithful, thoughtful, and wise servant
faithful, sensible servant
wise and loyal servant
the servant, faithful and wise
faithful and prudent bondman

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that this is the Governing Body of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (which is made up of a few chosen members of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class). "Christ uses this body to publish information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies and to give timely direction on the application of Bible principles in daily life." Hence, they are referred to as the "remnant," the "anointed," God's "prophet", and God's "channel".

So, do they have the right to make this claim? Well, sure. Anyone can claim anything.

so, let me see if i can figure this out (a lowly woman who doesn't plan on going to heaven anytime soon)

stewardship in the bible. a steward is a servant (slave) that jesus (the master) let's take care of his stuff while he is away. it's not the slave's stuff, it's still the master's.

the bible is full of terms like this. servant, disciple, apostle. the term slave and master and the required obedience is a central theme.

who can claim to be a slave of the master? Anyone.

i ran accross a scripture that made me think:

"As each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God's varied grace." 1 Peter 4:10

hmmm it says each one could be good stewards.

different translations of 1 Pet. 4:10 read:

serve others, faithfully administering God's grace
each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards
good trustees of God
serve one another
each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards
Each of you has received a gift to use to serve others. Be good servants of God's various gifts of grace.
God has given each of you a gift. Use it to help each other. This will show God's loving-favor.
good managers
good dispensers
Each one should use his gift to help the others.
faithfully administering God's grace
faithful stewards of God's grace

7

WATCHTOWER CHRISMAS TREES OR EASTER EGG,ANYONE!

by badboy in

jw
friends

suppose someone set up a company called w xmas trees.

or wt easter eggs.

what would the jws make of that?.

Magick

Since the celebration ofour Lord's birth is not amatter ofdivine appointment or injunction, butmerely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessaryfor us to quibble particularly about the date. Wemay as well join with the civilized world incelebrating the grand event on the day which themajority celebrate-'Christmas day"' (Watchtower--Dec. 1, 1904, p. 364).

"The event is so important that itis always appropriate to call it to the minds ofthe people, regardless of the date " (Watchtower-Dec. 15, 1926, P. 371)

"It is quite immaterial the day Christmas is celebrated; we may properly join. (WT 12/15/1903 p.3290)

Judge Rutherford, the Watchtower president at the time, was very excited about his "numerous Christmas presents " " (Watchtower-Jan. 15, 1919, P. 3 1).

I'm dreaming of a Watch------Tower Christmas! Bookbags & Bible covers for everyone!

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

several years ago, when i was still interested in doctrine...i got proficient enough at scripture checkers that i could play both sides of the trinity. playing checkers is boring enough, but alone?

i was angry that i had been deceived. try as i might to fade gracefully, i did open my mouth to a few jws. these friends (yes they are still) admired me for my intelligence, so what i had to say hit them over the head with a sledgehammer. i did not know it at the time the effect i had on them, i was in my own misery.

one jw friend, never talked to me again about the bible...ever.

another friend told me later..."i figured you were talking to 'those apostates' online and they had mislead you"

another friend just recently told me..."remember when we saw each other several years ago?" "well, something you said got to me..." "it got to me so bad that i actually started thinking i was an atheist" "i was already depressed, and losing god (and everything) made me want to commit suicide"

this third friend has moved back to my city and we are close friends again. she is a very social person and figures out a way to help and use just about everyone. she uses jws as her network. she had been disfellowshipped before (a very difficult and well known disfellowshipping that took years to get back) so she knows what it's like to be without anyone.

she told me..."no matter what, i will always be your friend" "nothing you can do or say will cause me to stop talking to you, i love you" this is from a person that I (as a witness) SHUNNED FOR YEARS! i told her that i understood her situation and would try not to destroy her faith. she believes enough to keep her a witness. she is one of those persons who thinks "whom shall we go away to?"

again, i will say to those on this thread that think i am referring to atheism when i say ALL or NOTHING. when i refer to "nothing" or "throwing it ALL away"

atheists believe in SOMETHING. they have done their research and have decided for THEMSELVES NOT to believe in god. they have made a choice, taken a stand, been moved to action and are content with their decision. they are not in turmoil and agony of spirit. science, rationalism, facts, hardcore evidence fulfills them. they OWN their OWN belief system.

when i refer to NOTHING....and throwing it ALL away. it's more about those of us who are suffering with fear, shame, guilt, avoidance. who with those horrible feelings beat themselves up constantly. their mind is torn. they want to believe in god, they feel it deep inside that god exists or at least something does. but are still trapped by witness thinking. it's like they have left the witnesses, but the witness has not left them. they are their own worst enemy. a terrible, judgemental jw is inside of their liberated body...paralyzing them into nothing. the automatic thoughts of "you are not good enough" "you left jehovah" "maybe the witnesses have the truth" "i'm going to die at armageddon" "jehovah hates me" "i'm bad, evil" "i can't go to another religion, i'd be worshipping satan" "i still believe in Jehovah and the new order" "i won't be in paradise" and on and on and on.

those of us who leave, without finding a way to be deprogrammed...are more likely to suffer from anxiety, phobias, depression, isolation, withdrawel, social anxiety, sexual dysfunction, low self-esteem, guilt, judgmentalism. "throwing the baby out" to them means not facing their fears. not taking on personal responsibility. not taking a stand to believe in SOMETHING. choosing to avoid the subject, push it down, try to forget it all, ignore it. it's a coping mechanism. if i avoid it then i don't have to make a decision and i can avoid the pain. if some of these are asked "what is your religion" they may say..."i don't have any" or "christian" or "i'm more spiritual than religious" they avoid praying or thinking about god. go through life ignoring their spirituality. outside they may look "wordly" they could have grown a beard, got a tattoo, started smoking or taking drugs...even left their husband or wife. but, inside they still feel like a "witness" like they really don't fit in, that others will see right through them, they are an imposter...they still feel "different" and are longing to feel "normal"

all of their life they have had someone make their decisions for them. now, alone...they are incapable of making a decision. this is when they think..."maybe i was better off as a witness."

we were witnesses. seven days a week, 365 days a year. just because you stop going to the kingdom all doesn't change this. if you throw it all away, you are left with an empty shell (a tattooed worldy one). one good squeeze from the "world" and you shatter and blow away.

We are no longer part of a man made religion. Some of us are Atheists, some of us are crazy over the top fundamentalists. Some of us are NOTHING. But, we want to be SOMETHING. if we could just get rid of this fear...this fear of "what if" just maybe "they were right"

this fear of deciding for ourselves what we want to believe.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

one more and i must hit the hay.

I like Magick, Magick.
nvrgnbk

Magick is but Man in harmony with the undisputable Cosmic Laws of Nature and the Universe. The Magickal Personality is one that recognizes, accepts and merges with these energies to manifest a desired situation in reality.
Magick is not a belief of supernatural quality, rather the understanding of all things natural in accordance with the Cosmic Laws of the Universe. All that is existant is a sanction of the cosmos. This phenomena occurs through the most natural channels and in complete accordance to those immutable Laws.

Magick is creating physical change by directly impacting the realm of energy. All things have energy. People, plants, animals and the elements all have an energy component. And this energy has a direct impact on the actions of people and the outcome of events. The most powerful energy that a person has is their thought energy. If you think about something hard enough you WILL manifest it in your life. For example Jehovah's Witnesses are always thinking about Satan, wickedness, persecution, everything negative. There are more demon stories within JWs than the general population. Here's another example...animals and children. If you are always thinking about what they shouldn't do....you are giving THAT energy....and children and animals WILL do what they shouldn't. Call it the law of attraction. My animals do this all the time. I am NOT an animal whisperer...I give my animals attention (energy) when they are bad.

I am learning too that that our thoughts influence our feelings and behavior, our feelings influence our behavior and thoughts and our behaviors influence our emotions and thoughts. *gets dizzy and falls over*

I am working on not being a self-fulfilling prophecy. In, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a person's core beliefs *insert watchtower doctrine* (often formed in childhood) contribute to 'automatic thoughts' that pop up in every day life in response to situations. If we focus on those false watchtower beliefs and ideas...we give them energy...and they "magickally" appear and suck the life out of us.

speaking of sucking and having no life left...that reminds me...i need to sleep. :)

i hope that this thread keeps going. it took me a long time to realize i didn't have to get rid of most of who i am and how i think because i left the watchtower organization. i was very sad for a long time thinking there was nothing out there for me. please, remind all those who have left or are thinking of leaving that it is possible to be deprogrammed and still keep your identity.

i was talking to an inactive witness friend the other day and she said..."i believe most of what the witnesses teach...at least 90% of it" "i don't believe in field service" "but, until i find something better, this is it"

how many times have we heard that? witnesses who won't leave until they see something "better than the organization" the fact is, they will never "see something better"

UNTIL they leave.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

Funny, sometimes I wish I had not been born into witnesshood, because I think there is a possiblility if I had belonged to a more luke warm religion, I might have been content, and never have thought about it. But as it stands, I looked, and I looked and I looked and I looked. I am now sure there is no god. There is however personal responsibility and a rather beautiful world out there. beksbks

hi bek, there is an uneasy feeling when we realize that OUR parents were victims...and we are victims of victims. i do envy those who are balanced when it comes to religion. it is a part of their life but not their life. personal responsibility is such a foreign concept. so is a "beautiful world" years of cognitive behavioral therapy won't rid me of all the negative jw thoughts. oh wait, that was a negative statement...

I still believe in God even though those that teach "the truth" about God have been the worst kinds of abusers. I hope God has mercy on those that have been so abused.
I also hope that God would take a more active part in human affairs. I find his aloofness this late in the game rather disheartening. If he can make just the briefest of manifestations on the world scene today it would do the world a world of good - if you pardon the pun. Mankind would know that it is not really alone in the universe. And that there is a God after all! Roddy

If god does not have mercy on the abused, i'd rather remain ignorant of his wearabouts. yep...i'd like to see god spontaneously restore lost limbs on an amputee or at least send us a free sample of some type of miracle cure.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

It would be nice for you to condense your thoughts and musings into bite sized morsels but ...you've written the prologue to a book. Gregor

Gregor, i was writing with my heart while my brain was resting. In the future, when these two have reconciled, I will aim to be more succinct and avoid all the waffle.

When I take a big bite of potato salad at the picnic and it tastes really bad I turn to the nearest garbage can and spit it out, "p'tooey!" I don't stop and say to myself,"Hmmm, if I don't eat this bad potato salad what will I eat? Maybe I should see what else there is to eat first, otherwise I will not have anything to eat...hmmm..."
When I left the JWs I had no idea what my beliefs were. But I damn sure knew that the Watchtower dogma was spoiled potato salad. I took my time and sifted through a lot of introspection and 'soul searching' to find what I believed and the process is still going on. Don't worry about the baby, just get rid of the bath water. Gregor
i do rather like potato salad. german, with lots of eggs and mustard.
if i were at a picnic and took a large spoonful of spoiled dogma...(if i had been eating it all my life..it would taste just fine and the belly ache tollerated) i might in my haste to rid my mouth of the foul taste, head for the nearest metal vat filled with grape Flavor Aid, (poisoned with valium, chloral hydrate, and presumably (though not certainly) cyanide)

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

IMHO, the GB painted God as an ogre. They did that to keep fear in us, which kept us in fear of God and in turn in fear of God's true spokemen on earth. (Just typing that God' s true spokesmen part made me throw up). It was the fear of them they needed to keep up going door to door. I'm sure God didn't give a rat's ass how many magazines we placed. dinah

dinah, this was one of the big things that i swallowed whole without chewing. how can an all-loving god be a huge proponent of slavery, an advocate of both animal and human sacrifice, a flagrant misogynist AND a baby killer? it did not compute. why was jesus so nice and god was so vengeful? we didn't have hell...but, we had hell to pay if we didn't go out in service. plus, if we ever leave the organization we are programmed to self-destruct.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

Personally I found that JWs were not at all spiritual people. I know we've had discussions before and will again, about what that means. But personally I am significantly more spiritual now than I ever was as a JW. Gretchen956

hi Gretchen, I know. I thought I was spiritual...I was just among those who were more susceptible to their programming. I had "annointed" in the family. I was baptized at a VERY young age (under 10). regular pioneer. family full of witnesses, elders, pioneers, ministerial servants. plus, I was obedient and loyal...willing to do everything i could for jehovah (the watchtower) all this adds up to a RICH breading ground of brainwashing. believe it or not, there were glimpses of spirituality in my life....all ignored and suppressed. since leaving the watchtower organization (mind control) i have felt a strong spiritual desire.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

PS- Now, you have earned the right to have a cold one!BA

thank u. i think we all have earned that right...so here's a toast to you and all of our friends here on JWD who have been unjustly hurt by a man-made religion and survived. "May you find peace of mind, self-acceptance and a heart & home full of real friends"

I could see you on a picket line holding a sign!....oompa

thanks oompa. one look into your eye...and i'd do anything.

I just cannot make myself believe in any god. Once you can see millions of people in one religion can be wrong, it's easy to see that the other religions cancel each other out in a way. They can't all be right, and there's no reason to believe in one over the others. serotonin_wraith

i know. i have felt the same way.

Whom shall we go to" in the bible isn't referring to a church or the JW's who think they have the "Truth" exclusively. According to the sciptures it is Jesus that we have to go to on a personal level Maddie

hi maddie, i admire people who have a personal relationship with jesus. they seem so content.

I see what you're saying, but speeches like this are just like telling a lesbian she doesn't really like women because she "hasn't had a real man yet." B_Deserter

i love your argument. starting out with a lesbian analogy is priceless!

The fact that there are many things we do not know about the universe is not proof that God did it. B_Deserter

you're right. my little "speech" was intended for everyone who has left (or is thinking about leaving) the watchtower organization. we all have residual "programming" we have to deal with. our experience was unhealthy and dysfunctional. not only were we abused religiously, but we were abused emotionally upon our exit. mentally, this is not the best time to make life/belief choices. the all or nothing mentality comes with us if we are not careful. exjws will choose to be atheists or born again fundamentalists. many however choose nothing. that nothing creates a vacuum that leaves us feeling "empty" "like we're missing something" void of spirituality. the analogy of the baby and bathwater could mean god or it could mean values and ethics.

Even if someone doesn't believe in God, some of the lessons from the bible are indispensable, just as are parts of The Tao, the Koran, or any other religious writings wanderlustguy

yes, i agree.

I became agnostic for a long while. Now I truly believe that the purest form of "spirituality" as you defined it, Magick, does not need to involve an unseen superior being of some sort. Like B_Deserter said, there's not enough evidence to believe in a personal God who has not made himself or itself plain. I can't rule it out entirely, but I simply don't believe.
My spirituality involves life, loving, caring and sharing. I believe in goodness toward humanity, a goodness not prompted by some external source, but by myself -- from inside of me. Gopher

i know. i have bounced back and forth...but remain the longest on Agnosticism. Nature moves me to want to believe in a higher power yet I am filled with skepticism. the fact that i cannot rule anything out leaves room for my own spiritual growth. Rejecting an entire (all-knowing) belief structure that was taught to me from infancy has led to confusion, isolation, fear, guilt, shame, lack of confidence, inability to make decisions and a great mistrust in humanity. the thought that i was "bad" or "evil" and no longer in god's favor...led me to question EVERYTHING, including values, morality, sin. NO RULES instead of ALL RULES seemed the right choice. If I believed in god, then the belief in angels was not far behind...then what about demons...then what about the bible? etc. etc. If I am going to die as an apostate...might as well have fun while i'm here right?

In my experience, it has been truly liberating to throw both the Watchtower and the Bible out together, and any less than that is curtailing the need for us humans to take personal responsibility for our lives instead of this infantile expectation that the Monster in the sky will somehow take care of us.
I t's not so much a matter as throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but throwing a very demanding monster out with the bathwater so that we as babies can finally grow up . steve2

yes, i agree about the watchtower...and maybe the bible (don't stone me people) but, i'm thinking the "monster" we "served" was a man-made creation. there could be something beyond us that isn't at all what we have been taught.

68

Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?

by Magick in

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated.

we accepted all of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "the truth".

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

Magick

as witnesses who were deeply indoctrinated. we accepted ALL of jehovah's witness teachings as a total package, it was "THE TRUTH"

there were no cracks in our armor that would allow other ideas, doctrines or thoughts to seep in.

the more "spiritual" a person is in "the truth" only means the more control the WTBTS has over thier (our) mind.

very intelligent people have been and are under the control of the watchtower (the magazine and the organization behind it) we (they) have been conditioned to believe that

the watchtower talks for God.

the watchtower TELLS us they talk for god.

God talks to us through them.

going against the watchtower is going against god himself.

this is what many of us have been conditioned to think.

a "spiritual" (controlled) person sincerely believes

he/she is carrying out God's wishes by not thinking, doubting or questioning.
everything is good or evil (black or white)
he/she is never good enough
god will take care of everything
goes to all meetings, assemblies, field service as told
you should not compromise
he/she has the only true religion

when the day comes, it could be a crisis in our life or a gentle intervention by a concerned friend...or the faintest of little voices in our head (we didn't even realize we had a voice) we question something we read in the watchtower.

ashamed of our questioning, or curious...we do research.

we find a thread of information that validates that the watchtower made a mistake. for the first time, we think. (yes WE think) maybe the watchtower isn't right on everything. *gasp*

this leads us to wonder (still thinking) maybe there is something else they are wrong on. *gasp* no, it can't be. thus the crack in our belief system begins, eventually, piece by piece our jehovah's witness "suit of armor" disintegrates to nothing.

this leaves us shaken, vulnerable and alone. all of us have been there. many of us are still there.

what you have experienced is the death of your religion.

here is where it gets tricky. as with any death, there is a period of mourning and adjustment. how long you recover is personal. for a few, the wound runs too deep and they may never recover. for most, we travel through a dark tunnel of emotions and break free when we finally see the light at the end.

while we are still in this emotional tunnel of recovery...the last thing that is on our mind is joining another religion. this is where the bathwater analogy comes in (long intro, aren't you glad you waited?)

we were so conditioned (brainwashed) into thinking that jehovah's witnesses own "the truth," that when we discover they DON'T, we dismiss ALL religion as NON-TRUTH. essentially, we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

alt

Here is the key. As these old etchings show..."Be careful not to discard something of value with something that is of no value."

The natural reaction to this unnatural situation we face is to turn away from everything. We were in an unhealthy, dysfunctional and abusive religion. We were brainwashed into believing ALL or NOTHING. So, order us up a large heapingful of NOTHING please.

Eventually, as we heal emotionally and mentally we also begin to heal spiritually. We come to understand that RELIGION is created by human beings. It is only a tool. If we free ourselves of RELIGION we are open to explore SPIRITUALITY. OUR OWN SPIRITUALITY.

Here's another tricky crossroad. Spirituality may mean different things to different people. Basically, I am suggesting that we are more than physical beings. That without a healthy spirituality we are missing a part of ourselves. I am suggesting that spirituality is closely related to the energy and thoughts that give us life and make us human. Wherever this energy comes from. Our thoughts/spirituality takes us deeper within to explore ourselves or can connect us to a higher form of energy, force or power. spirituality can include some or all of the following:

Meaning – significance of life; making sense of situations; deriving purpose.
Values – beliefs, standards and ethics that one cherishes.
Transcendence – experience, awareness, and appreciation of a "transcendent dimension" to life beyond self.
Connecting – increased awareness of a connection with self, others, God/Spirit/Divinity, and nature/Nature.
Becoming – an unfolding of life that calls for reflection and experience; including a sense of who one "is" and how one knows.

i am currently trying to figure out what i believe. it is a long process that may take the rest of my life. it has been over seven years since i was an active witness. i am sure i have been through every stage of recovery...except the healing stage. (maybe i am there now)

my purpose in writing this is perhaps i can save some of you precious recovery time. If you are currently a jehovah's witness with doubts and wonder if jehovah's witnesses aren't the truth, then who is?

those words... "whom shall we go away to?"... are meant to scare you into NOT thinking. to MAKE you think there is NOTHING else.

i am one small voice and i am speaking up.

it is time to start THINKING for yourself.

it isn't easy and there isn't ONE answer to every question.

if you are ready to move on. if you are ready to change your situation. just know that you are NOT ALONE. You don't have to throw away EVERYTHING you have been taught. There are some valuable life lessons who have made you who you are today. Your life and experiences are there to fall back on and share with others.

Human Labels should not define you:

Jehovah's Witness, Ex-Jehovah's Witness, APOSTATE, DISFELLOWSHIPPED, DISASSOCIATED, INACTIVE.

YOU ARE YOU. Change begins in YOUR MIND.