My mom and myself were going door-to-door in the Denver area. We came to a home with toys strewn about the front lawn. I knocked on the door and woman of the home answered. I proceeded with my presentation. She held up her hand, and said that she appreciated what I was doing, but that she did not agree with the JWs. She then said something that exploded my JW defenses. She said, "You only believe and do what your Governing Body tells you to do." It's amazing that something that inocuous (sp?) could have affected me so deeply that I still remember to this day, 26 years after the fact.
XJW4EVR
JoinedPosts by XJW4EVR
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Do you remember SPECIFIC CONVERSATIONS with householders from the field ministry?
by BonaFide ini have a few that i remember that were interesting.
of course, those that i supposedly helped.. but i also remember one man at an apartment.
i started to talk about the universe, and how the planets are aligned perfectly, and the earth is the perfect distance from the sun to support life.
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What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
It's Ehrman reading his presuppositions into the text. Something that he has not been straight forward about. Because he is not forthcoming about this fact, he has duped persons into thinking that he is being "honest" when he really isn't. When I read Witherington, Metzger (who taught Witherington and Ehrman) or any other conservative scholar I know what there presuppositions are at the outset. This tells me why they are saying what they are saying.
As I said before, any scholar that agrees with your presuppostions is "honest" yet those that do not are "quacks". Seems to me like the old mind sets never leave certain people. In any case, I bid you good day.
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What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
ATJ,
Remember that your thoughts on Witherington apply equally to Ehrman or any other liberal theologian you trot out, or do they get some sort of special pleading beacuse their presuppositions match your own?
AK-Jeff,
You have not answered the question. What specific type of evidence would you accept? With out a common ground on the evidences you would accept, there is no purpose to me supplying information tht you will only dismiss as not the sort of evidence you desire. Too many years of dialoging with atheists and skeptics have taught me not to walk into that minefield.
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What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
ATJ,
Thanks for your reply. I do not think dialoge with you would be profitable based on this comment:
I couldn't give 2 nickels about what this quack says.
So your mind is madeup regardless of the facts? That comment makes your apology ring hollow. Therefore I believe that Matthew 7:6 applies in this situation.
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St. Petersburg Times Exposes Scientology
by XJW4EVR inthe st. petersburg times completed a three-part expose on the cult of the scientology.
good reading, and good information to use with jws.. part 1 of 3. .
part 2 of 3. part 3 of 3.
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XJW4EVR
Interesting link that Cameo D gave me.
http://ce399.typepad.com/weblog/2008/07/wollersheim-v-church-of-scientology-1990-damage-award-25-million.html
60. Also, the court found no distinction between Scientology's policy of "disconnect" and the "shunning" practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses and Mennonites. Where shunning isolates one member of a group from the rest of the members, the disconnect policy isolates the individual from his family outside the group. Since in Wollersheim's case the practice of disconnect was coerced, the court escaped having to conclude whether to follow the law in Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York, 819 F.2d 875 (1987) (religion cannot be held civilly liable to shunned former member because shunning is constitutionally protected conduct) or Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church, 341 A.2d 105 (1975) (religion may be civilly liable to shunned former member because shunning must yield to compelling state interest in protecting family relations). -
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What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
OK Jeff, what sort of evidence would you deem as acceptable?
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107
What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
It is true that under scrutiny, the Bible unravels pretty quickly.
Really? How so?
Yet, sadly, many would prefer to ignore that and believe it without inspection.
Couldn't the same be said for those that wish to reject the evidence for the inspiration of the Bible out of hand?
NOW, that makes better sense than finding out if it holds water, doesn't it?
Sure, are you willing to find out whether your view regarding the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament "holds water"? In my experience, most skeptics are unwilling to abandon the presuppostion that the Bible is not the word of God regardless of what the evidence demonstrates.
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Do You Consider yourself an Atheist / Agnostic / or Christian? Reasons ?
by flipper inafter having been raised in the jehovah's witnesses for 44 years ( getting out 6 years ago ) i have now come to peace with my view of what i personally feel about the existence of god , or no god, or whatever is flying around up there in outer space.
i am basically agnostic for sure / perhaps leaning atheist and i've come to that decision based on the years and years of unfulfilled false promises of being in a mind control cult ( jehovah's witnesses ) claiming to represent an alleged " god " or " jehovah " saying there would be a paradise, and armageddon to destroy 99% of the earths population.
also- i enjoy helping others without thought of being rewarded for it.
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XJW4EVR
I am a Christian. I am a Christian based on the evidences for the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I am also a Christian because Christianity is the only religion that conforms to reality.
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107
What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
ATJ asks:
Can you give me a quote where I made an assertion?
Here you go:
Still, the fact remains that men wrote these letters, men translated these letters, men preserved them, and there is very real evidence that they were "tweaked" if not outright changed through the centuries as various religio/political views came and changed with them.
What evidence led you to that conclusion? It's a simple question, and one does not have to be writing a college term paper in order to be asked that question. Atheiests and skeptics ask this of Christians constantly, yet when the tables are turned the atheist or skeptic responds in an indignant manner that they are somehow excused from this.
You mention Bart (not Brad) Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus. Yes, I have read it, and found it to be an excellent primer on textual criticism. Sadly, it has been taken as a book that exposes the Bible as being full of errors. Many conservative scholars have come out with papers that are critical of Ehrman. One in particular is Ben Witherington, he states that many of Ehrman's arguements come straight from the German school of higher criticism from over one hundred years ago. All of these objections have been refuted by scholars. Sadly, Ehrman is trooting out these old views, and people how are ignorant of church history are gobbling them up as if they are the latest craze in scholarship. Witherington also points out that based on the nearly 5700 New Testament manuscripts we have an accuracy rate of 99.5%. Note that I am not even including the 19,000-plus copies that are extant in the Syriac, Coptic, Aramaic and Latin.
My conclusions are based on the evidence that Pauls extant writings were long out of existence, that copies were made, that these copies contained errors the further down in time you examine them, and that at the time that the books for the bible cannon were considered, various sects were competing for their own letters to be included. Some made it, others didn't.
What led you to this conclusion? I have not found anything that indicates that this is how the New Testament canon was put together. Now it is possible that I have missed a book or two. I do not claim inexhaustable knowledge on the subject, but I have read many conservative and liberal scholars regarding the assembling of the canon, and the arguments of the conservatives appear to line up with they way things were, to the best of our knowledge.
I might add though, that books like Misquoting Jesus and others are out there for anyone to examine the evidence, history and scholarship of the bible cannon, including Pauls letters. However, the evidence has had little effect on people of faith who are determined to believe no matter what evidence comes to light. For this, I have no desire to argue or change their minds. More power to them.
The problem is not that the "evidence has had little effect[sic] on people of faith who are determined to believe no matter what evidence comes to light." The problem is people that are so eager and willing to reject the Bible based on the old and refuted arguments of the 19th century. The problem is simple. I, like you will not argue with these sorts. However, I will not stand by and allow conclusions based on flimsy or no evidence, to remain unchallenged.
You haven't asserted anything. (I think) Would you assert that Pauls writings are really from Paul, and as such, inspired of god?
No, I have not asserted anything. I prefer to try to understand your views before I make my views known. I am not trying to be duplicitous, I am just attempting to gain clarity. However, to answer your question, yes, I do believe that Paul actually wrote the epistles that have his name. This view is based on internal and external evidences that are too numerous to enumerate here. I also believe that they are inspired by God. This view is again based on the internal and external evidences that are also too numerous to list here.
I would love to dialoge with you further on this, but if you are convinced that I am just blindly following the Bible, then there would be no benefit to either of us.
Peace to you.
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107
What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?
by AK - Jeff ina thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.
and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.
thoughts?.
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XJW4EVR
Kinda like the Christians that put 'Holy' on the Bible and claimed it 'God breathed' without any evidence, or even claims thoughout much of it?
In the view of many who have come before us, and the many that will come after us, there is more than enough external evidence from archeology and statistical probablity to give the books of the Bible creedence as a reliable guide for ancient history. When a person cuples these two elements with the internal evidence from the manuscripts and fulfilled prophecy a person can come to the conclusion that the books we call the BIble are inspired.
Now, that was one huge assertion! And it has affected billions of lives. ATJ's assertions, if proven to be such, will have very little if any longterm affects on mankind. Those who inserted Paul's writings, and labeled them 'holy' and 'inspired' shaped Christianity forever, positively and/or negatively, based on your viewpoint, time in history, etc.
This is true. However, I am not looking at ATJ's musings as lifechanging. I am simply asking how he came to those conclusions. Now you assert that Paul's writings were inserted into the Bible. What evidence do you have that leads you to that conclusion?
At least we don't have the Church with powers of execution any longer - like they did during the Crusades. Now, that was some effect of assertions, eh? I imagine those tortured to death would have much rather endured the ones made here in open, free debate.
I am not sure to what you are referrering to, the Crusades or the Inquisition, for your statement seems to have jumbled both into one big ball. However, would you agree that those who took a leading role in these travesties were not following the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter or John?