XJW4EVR

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Posts by XJW4EVR

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  36

  World Cup 2010 - Are you excited?

  by lepermessiah in

  1. social
  2. physical

  i am so ready for the world cup to start!.

  who are you pulling for?.

  what players are you looking forward to watching?.

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  XJW4EVR

  I will be rooting for two teams. USA and whoever is playing Mexico.
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  69

  Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a complex question, and i just want to get a discussion started on the message of jehovah's witnesses and how it relates to their adventist roots, and esp calvinism.. bear with me, i will try to be concise.. we all know that while jehovah's witnesses like to deny adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man jesus selected to get the whole thing started, c t russell, was heavily influenced by adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens.

  (thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.).

  so while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that jehovah's witnesses teach against, yet practice.

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  XJW4EVR

  Rather than make arguements based on fallacious strawmen I have decided to write down the two views, Arminianism and Calvinism and contrast them. Understand that I am a Calvinist (though for the first five years of my Christianity I was an Arminian), however, I have spent a number of years studying these views both in theology and church history. I have great condensed them down to one or two sentences that do not fully explore the nuances of either belief.

  Point One:

  Arminian: Arminians believe that humanity's fall into sin is not total. They believe that "the will" is free from any influence from sin and/or God.

  Calvinism: Calvinists believe that humanity's fall into sin is total. They believe that man's will is in bondage to sin, and in such condition is unable to seek after God, unless God first intervenes.

  Point Two:

  A: The election of the saints is conditioned upon the response of the believer to the offer of salvation.

  C: The election of the saints is based unconditionally on the choice of the Father.

  Point Three:

  A: The atoning work of Jesus on the cross is effective to save all humanity.

  C: The atoning work of Jesus on the cross is powerful enough to save all humanity, but is only effective to save those who the Father elected.

  Point Four:

  A: The saving grace of God can be resisted by the individual.

  C: The saving grace of God cannot be resisted.

  Point Five:

  A: In classic Arminianism, preserverance of the saints was something that was not clear. However, in modern Arminianism, it is viewed that the believer can lose his/her salvation.

  C: The believer may from time to time fall into sin, but will never fall totally and permanently into sin. Those that do fully and finally fall into sin were never believers to begin with.

  With the two contrasted, it is clear that the JWs are more Arminian, if not fully Arminian.

  A couple of points: Chalam, I appreciate your citings of Scripture. However, nothing in John 3:16 negates any teaching found within the doctrines of grace(i.e., Calvinism). Calvinists beleive that the "whosoever" do not make this decision of their own volition, but only after the Holy Spirit has enabled them to do so. This is confirmed in John 1:10-18, as well as in Romans 3:9-18.

  I will post more later.
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  27

  JWs and piracy (digital kind)

  by teel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'd like to hear of other people's experience regarding the jws inclination to pirating software, music, films.. this of course is relative to your country.

  because i live in a relatively poor country, the rate of piracy is extremely high, individuals practically never buy software, music and films are bought now and then.

  this of course is against the law here too.. so what do jws do?

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  XJW4EVR

  Just FYI to everyone, you're better off with OpenOffice than with a stolen pirated version of MS Office. A lot of the open source stuff is quite good.

  I have been using Open Office for about 2 or 3 years, and I have no complaints. It's a great program that allows my to save my work in MS Office formats.
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  69

  Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a complex question, and i just want to get a discussion started on the message of jehovah's witnesses and how it relates to their adventist roots, and esp calvinism.. bear with me, i will try to be concise.. we all know that while jehovah's witnesses like to deny adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man jesus selected to get the whole thing started, c t russell, was heavily influenced by adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens.

  (thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.).

  so while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that jehovah's witnesses teach against, yet practice.

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  2. 
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  XJW4EVR

  Hey XJW4EVR

  Thank you for sharing your beliefs. As a caveat, I didn't mean to over simplify Calvinistic dogma, or any related dogma. As I am sure you got, my main point was in highlighting a JW belief that while they deny, seem to practice and believe in. To highlight Calvinism was merely to draw on that general belief system as a comparison piece.

  I happily allow that I did a poor job in explaining the Calvinist belief system, and I apologize if I got it wrong.

  I am curious however, as I now know you to be Calvin, if you agree with my opinion as to JW beliefs regarding their own seeming version of predestination. (which was my main point)

  Thanks!

  No, I do not agree with your opinion. The reason, as I put it in my first point, is that you appear to have confused predestination with providence. Predestination are the decrees of God. Providence is the outwork of those decrees. If there is a Christian system of soteriology that matches JW dogma it is Arminianism. Arminianism was the easiest belief system for me to import into my new found Christianity nearly 20 years ago. It is an interesting view, but it does not hold any water, IMO.
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  69

  Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is a complex question, and i just want to get a discussion started on the message of jehovah's witnesses and how it relates to their adventist roots, and esp calvinism.. bear with me, i will try to be concise.. we all know that while jehovah's witnesses like to deny adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man jesus selected to get the whole thing started, c t russell, was heavily influenced by adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens.

  (thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.).

  so while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that jehovah's witnesses teach against, yet practice.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  XJW4EVR

  Hi Jeff,

  I read your OP with great interest, as I am a Calvinistic Christian. While it is well thought out, and concise, I believe that you have some misconceptions about Calvinism that you are trying to fit into Watchtower dogma. WT dogma and the so-called five points of Calvinism are mutually exclusive. In fact, if WT dogma matches any Reformation era doctrine, it matches the teachings of Jacob Arminius, the author of what we call Arminianism today.

  Your view on total depravity, is not even remotely close to what either Calvinism or Arminianism teach. While both believe in original sin (the idea that humanity is born sinful), they diverge on its effect on humanity. Arminianism teaches that man has a "free will", i.e., the ability to chose God free of their sinful natures. Calvinism, on the other hand, teaches that humanity's ability to chose is depraved. In other words, that humainity's depravity is total or full, and that nothing inside individual humans longs for God. I am aware of no JW dogma that affirms total depravity as taught within Calvinism. On the other hand, I have seen many writings that would affirm the Arminian view.

  The other thing you seem to be doing is confusing Divine predestination with Divine providence. While their differences may be subtle, they are there. Predestination refers to God's sovereign decrees regarding an individual's future (Calvinism) or God's foreknowledge of an individual's faith (Arminianism). Providence refers to how God works out is predestined decrees in the lives of humanity, e.g. the examples you have mentioned. Both Calvinists and Arminians hold to the above view on Divine providence with some distinctions that are trivial.

  There are four other points in Calvinism that I could go into and demonstrate the differences between it and Watchtower dogma, however that might not be what you are looking for in this discussion. What I will say, is that the Watchtower is in NO WAY Calvinistic in its soteriology. It is 100% Arminian, from the idea of human autonomy down to the question of a believer losing his/her salvation.

  There are two books that I would recommend that fully address these two views. For the Calvinistic view, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner, and for the Arminian view, Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler.
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  17

  Are you a Christian? How often do you challenge your beliefs?

  by cyberjesus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  until 6 months ago, i had faith in jehovah, jesus and the bible.

  i was not a jw ( i had been dfd 15 years ago) but i was planning on going back.

  i questioned some basic beliefs on the wts and discovered i had been lied to for over 35 years.

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  XJW4EVR

  I am not sure what "beliefs" you mean. If you are talking about essential doctrines of the historic Christian faith, then I really do not challenge them myself. The reason is that most of those doctrines have been epounded on for over 2,000 years, and there is very little to debate, IMO.

  On the contrary, I do challenge myself on secondary doctrine, e.g., areas in which there is variant beliefs within the historical orthodoxy. Currently I am challenging my view as a premillenialist. I am finding that I am moving towards an amillenial/partial preterist view. I have also moved from Arminianism to Calvinism. From fully open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit to a more cautious view.

  I think that God allows His followers an element of leeway in these secondary doctrines. This is something that is wholly fronwed upon by the WTB&TS. With them there MUST be absolute unity with no room for individuality.
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  53

  Anyone leave the org without the help of the net?

  by Miss Chievous in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  just wondering if anyone here left the org without ever looking at anything on the net and if so how did it happen for you?.

  miss c.

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  XJW4EVR

  Yes, I left without the help of the internet. I was introduced to the late Dr. Walter Martin. I read his books, and other books critical of the JWs, including Ray Franz's books, and decided that "the Truth" was not the truth.
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  5

  Vikings Blame Play-off Loss on Bush 43

  by XJW4EVR in

  1. social
  2. physical

  note: i did not come up with this one.

  it is a rather well written parody.. citing his failed response to katrina, the presence of his father in saints owner tom benson's private booth, as well as the fact that everything else seems to be his fault, the minnesota vikings today blamed their overtime nfc championship loss to the new orleans saints on former president george w. bush.. .

  former packer-jet-and-soon-viking qb brett favre was among the more adamant projectors of blame onto the former president who has been gone from office for one year as of january 20.

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  XJW4EVR

  The humor is there. You just can't see past your partisanship. No biggie. Your loss.
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  5

  Vikings Blame Play-off Loss on Bush 43

  by XJW4EVR in

  1. social
  2. physical

  note: i did not come up with this one.

  it is a rather well written parody.. citing his failed response to katrina, the presence of his father in saints owner tom benson's private booth, as well as the fact that everything else seems to be his fault, the minnesota vikings today blamed their overtime nfc championship loss to the new orleans saints on former president george w. bush.. .

  former packer-jet-and-soon-viking qb brett favre was among the more adamant projectors of blame onto the former president who has been gone from office for one year as of january 20.

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  XJW4EVR

  Liberals can't take a humerous poke. What a surprise.
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  Did Christianity Cause the Crash?

  by XJW4EVR in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  mark driscoll, the pastor of mars hill church in seattle mentioned this article from atlantic monthy in his sunday sermon two weeks ago.

  i finally got around to reading this today, and thought it made some really good points about a certain segment of christianity that is focused on prosperity.

  this movement is called the word of faith movement, and is led by people like joel olsteen, t.d.

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  XJW4EVR

  Mark Driscoll, the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle mentioned this article from Atlantic Monthy in his Sunday sermon two weeks ago. I finally got around to reading this today, and thought it made some really good points about a certain segment of Christianity that is focused on prosperity. This movement is called the Word of Faith movement, and is led by people like Joel Olsteen, T.D. Jakes, and most of the "preachers" on TBN. I am curious what your thoughts, if any are about this article.