when i was a kid, my mother wouldn't let me watch a program called chocky.
for those of you who live outside the uk, and those who didn't even know about this childrens program if you lived in the uk, .
see the link below...my mother thought this show had "spiritism" in it.
My Dad wouldn't let me watch
Edit: There was also One Day at a Time - with a young Vallerie Bertinelli -
the cryptic words of 1 cor 15:29 have ellicited much discussion through the years.
what did the writer mean, "baptism of the dead"?
the answer may be locked up in the controversy over who wrote those words and when.
All those points White mentions, especially his interpreting the dead as the group that participates metaphorically in Christ's death ala Romans 6:3, are persuasive. I was sorta on the right track then???? Methinks the Victorian Order of the Universe has been thrown off kilter by some foul deed.
He even manages to show there wasn't necessarily any redaction in that verse?! Blast him for spoiling my gleeful hope of heretical infestation of holy writ!!!!
Maybe I can still cling onto the other purported Marcionite redactions (1 Cor.7:1 Boo!!! Hiss!!!)
the cryptic words of 1 cor 15:29 have ellicited much discussion through the years.
what did the writer mean, "baptism of the dead"?
the answer may be locked up in the controversy over who wrote those words and when.
Leolaia
Sorry to hear about the blasted Windows glitch ... I want to thank you for all that work and that was an informative synopsis nonetheless. I also agree that vs.30-32 would read disjointed from the preceding text without something starting off that list of examples. So the verse isn't a simple insertion - yeah I see that.
But to yourself or anyone:
Since I haven't read this exact expression of "baptism for the dead" (be it causative or substitutionary) in any of the other pauline material, I wonder why he didn't elaborate on the meaning. How does this idea strike you? At Rom 6:3 Paul writes about being baptized into Jesus' death. Perhaps the verse originally had a similar notion of we being baptized into the dead etc. That was then redacted by a group (be it Marcionites or those Corinthians that supposedly practiced proxy baptism - thanks Deputy Dog for that commentary info).
The use of they and not we is a problem in that verse with any kind of inclusive explanation one may put forward.
the cryptic words of 1 cor 15:29 have ellicited much discussion through the years.
what did the writer mean, "baptism of the dead"?
the answer may be locked up in the controversy over who wrote those words and when.
PP
From the bit I read up on this matter, I never came across anything showing that this was a practice in Paul's time, only later. So it does make alot of sense that verse 29 was a marcionite redaction.
This writing shows that the Marcionites (at that time anyway ~ late 4th century) were using the verse to legitimize it:
What then is that which he means? Or will ye that I should first mention how they who are infected with the Marcionite heresy pervert this expression? And I know indeed that I shall excite much laughter; nevertheless, even on this account most of all I will mention it that you may the more completely avoid this disease: viz., when any catechumen departs among them, having concealed the living man under the couch of the dead, they approach the corpse and talk with him, and ask him if he wishes to receive baptism; then when he makes no answer, he that is concealed underneath saith in his stead that of course he should wish to be baptized; and so they baptize him instead of the departed, like men jesting upon the stage. So great power hath the devil over the souls of careless sinners. Then being called to account, they allege this expression, saying that even the Apostle hath said, "They who are baptized for the dead. Seest thou their extreme ridiculousness?" (St John Chrysostom, Homily XL, on 1 Corinthians)
some big fat liar made sumthin up again!
looky here what i went and found in the bible!
remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?
Gumby
I'd have to say that a few posters did a nice job of harmonizing the two different timelines into a plausible story. (i.e. your original question on desert soujourn or wedding right after baptism?)
But your post showing the discrepancies of when the Baptist was imprisoned and when Jesus called his twelve was excellent! That should be a stumper.
Reading all the different gospels (extracannonical and cannonical) that were written, leaves us with all sorts of conflicts. Were they all just making it up? I'd say yes. I agree with you that is lying in a way. But I think they're making it up in the sense of story-telling and myth-making.
P.S. Was Yoda a gnostic? In Ep.5 he did say something like "luminous beings are we, not this flesh" to Luke.
some big fat liar made sumthin up again!
looky here what i went and found in the bible!
remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?
Well wasn't the whole 40 days in the wilderness deal about Jesus being tempted?
Thats an alright plot scene for a less than divine being (be it a more human Son of Man, or a demi-god Son of God).
John if I read him right, makes JC out as God. I really don't see then why one would include a scene of God being tempted. It wouldn't sit right with that particular portrayal of the character.
some big fat liar made sumthin up again!
looky here what i went and found in the bible!
remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?
Say it ain't so Gumby! Say it ain't so!
Well there are alota flicks with alternate endings director's cuts.
Maybe, its a 1st century equivalent. Marky and Johnny had different visions of the lead character, and made different calls on the script.
I don't really care if its not historical and if the accounts conflict. Its still way better than the plotline of Highlander 2:The Quickening.
oh my god!
a sudden wave of recollection swept over me as i watched home movies today - remeber pep rallies?
the gatherings to encourage school spirit for sporting events, etc?.
I was ambivalent about the pep rallies. I was being constantly nagged to build up "spirit" from the jw side, so I needed some respite, not more of the same.
The cool thing was that there were a few other students that couldn't stand them either, so we'd be meet up outside and alternately talk about all sorts of stuff and diss some of the plays/players from time to time. As long as we didn't leave the field, the teachers could care less if we were cheering on or not.
ho-lo ayth shaw-mah'-yim ayth eh'-rets an-ee' maw-lay' nah-oom' yeh-ho-vaw'.
is it not actually heaven actually earth i fill said jehovah ?transliteration.
?is it not the heavens and the earth that i myself actually fill??
Raphael
That was a wonderful quote.
I sincerely hope that my blunt way of coming across wasn't taken as a personal disrespect to you. I thank you for your respect and manners with all of your responses. I guess I have some more testing of beliefs to do today.
Take care Raphael
Congrats Prof!
Its nice to hear it just flew by cause then you must be enjoying it!
Wishing you moreof the same
