Posts by zoolander

19

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses"

by Gordy in

.

the jw's use isaiah 43:10 as the excuse for their name.. i'm trying to find information that refutes this.

i came across a good one on a website but now can't find it.. anyone one know of a good refutation of the jw's use of this scripture..

zoolander

the Bible Students (the original JW?s)

Are they really? Are you sure? No, I am not, I wasn't there (On various websites, they claim to be the original Bible Students). it was meant as a twisted coment but you could look it up if you are interested

23

Snipits from Sept 2004 KM's

by qwerty in

i don't think i am breaking any copyright law here by retyping (quoting) a small section from the km.. just look what tactics the organisation are using by appealing to the consience of those trapped!respecting jehovah's authority.

with what do you associate the ancient names korah, dathan, and abiram?

rebellion!

zoolander

I think this was one of the lines that made me realise the power of cult mind control because I had never thought about how this would actually work. Excuse me if I?m not 100% accurate, I?m running this off the top of head.

Assume the account of Moses happened, that would mean that Korah and his buds saw Moses do the ten plagues, parting of the

Put this up against the WT$, they have a bunch of failed prophecies, ever changing doctrines, child and mental abuse, so a member spots this and decides to get out of there. Most so called apostates want to get as cleanly away (naturally they try and help friends and family) as possible. I haven?t personally heard of anyone trying to take over the WT$ (maybe Ruderford) or apostate publishers asserting themselves as elders.

Another ante apostate example is David. The WT$ say that David had the chance to kill Saul but instead respected Jehovah?s arrangement. What they fail to mention is he just ran and hid. Maybe if someone wants to leave the madness ?cleanly? they plant a bomb at and ring them to say where it is. Perhaps then the GB will say ?no don?t disfellowship him/her, s/he followed correct Biblical procedure".

19

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses"

by Gordy in

.

the jw's use isaiah 43:10 as the excuse for their name.. i'm trying to find information that refutes this.

i came across a good one on a website but now can't find it.. anyone one know of a good refutation of the jw's use of this scripture..

zoolander

I think it?s interesting to get the Bible Students (the original JW?s) point of view on this matter because it seems to be a major reason why they split. I don?t agree or disagree with there beliefs but it is interesting what they have to say. This was taken from

http://www.food4jws.org/watchtower/wt_beliefs/jews.htm

The Lord has foretold their experiences, past, present and future, no strange god or prophet could do this. The Jewish people, God's witnesses, are one of the most outstanding proofs of the inspiration of the Bible: They witness to the existence of a Supreme Being, the Creator and Preserver of Israel. They witness and prophesy accurately to the work, office and glory of the Messiah; no false witness or prophet could do this. If others bear witness to Jehovah, it could be only a second-hand witness, for of necessity the witness would be a repetition of the words of

Verse 4 of Isaiah 43 states: ..."Since you were precious in My sight, You have been honored, And I have loved you; Therefore I will give men for you, And people for your life."

God made them honorable because He chose them and made them the depository of the precious truths of true worship; therefore, they are precious in His sight. Because of His strange and miraculous dealings and providence's with His ancient people, , God and His Word will be glorified in the eyes of all nations. Remember, all this applies to a people whom the Lord chose hundred of years before the Christian dispensation.

When the Book of Isaiah was written there were no Christians, we read of them only in the New Testament, and they followed Jesus Christ. They are not referred to particularly as Jehovah's witnesses, but as the sons of God, as Christ's brethren, and witnesses of Jesus. Rev. 20:4 states: "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God." Also Rev. 2:13 we read of "Antipas, my faithful martyr (or witness)". And so faithful Christians give their lives particularly for the witness of Jesus.

What is the present state of these witnesses of Jehovah? Verse 5 and 6 of this 43rd chapter of Isaiah tells us: ... "Fear not, for I [am] with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, `Give them up!' And to the south, `Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar."

This is being fulfilled today: the God of Israel is regathering His witnesses, His afflicted people to their home. Yes, it is now time for them to go home. And home they went. In a past issue of the journal "Jews in the News" it had this to say: "It was the power of God which brought the New Jewish State into being, for how else could such victories have been won by a handful of untrained people in the face of such overwhelming odds, with the surrounding states as enemies, and greater enemies supporting them in the background. Many believed in God and the fulfillment of their promises, and when they saw this wonderful protection even the unbelieving were conscious of miracles working on the side of ."

They became established in against the will of many people. Not one nation helped them; even as some of them approached their beloved land in unseaworthy ships, they were turned back by the powers that be, to their great disappointment and anguish, but the promise still held good - "I (Jehovah) will work, and who shall hinder it" - turn it back - Isa. 43:13. The Jews in have a saying, that he who does not believe in miracles is not a realist. They have witnessed the greatest Divinely inspired phenomenon of our day.

But there are those who say, didn't God cast away natural when they rejected and put the Messiah to death? And didn't Jesus say, "Your house is left unto you desolate?" - Matt. 23:38. Therefore, does not spiritual inherit the promises? This is partly true, the chief place of favor and some of the most choice promises will be inherited by spiritual - " hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it." However, natural has not been cast off forever. The 11th chapter of Romans refers to this temporary casting off, and shows how the followers of Jesus of both Jews and Gentiles inherit the best of the promises. These are referred to as the priesthood, the holy nation, a little flock.

This is the day of the Lord's preparation; the hour has struck in the Divine Plan of the Ages, for the deliverance and regathering of God's ancient people. The God of Israel is moving swiftly and mightily on behalf of Jacob's posterity.

Isaiah 11:11, 12 reads: ..." It shall come to pass in that day [That] the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of , And gather together the dispersed of From the four corners of the earth."

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

Here?s a random thought from the movie Waking Life (note disclaimer)

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte484v/wakinglife/linklater.html

And so I read that, and I was like, "Well that's weird." And then that night, I had a dream, and there was this guy in the dream who was supposed to be a psychic, but I was skeptical. I was like, you know, he's not really a psychic, you know, I'm just thinking to myself. And then suddenly, I start floating, like levitating, up to the ceiling, and as I almost go through the roof, I'm like, "Ok Mr. Psychic, I believe you..you're a psychic. Put me down please." And I float down, and as my feet touch the ground the psychic turns into this woman in a green dress, and this woman is Lady Gregory. Now, Lady Gregory was Yates' patron, this Irish person. And though I'd never seen her image, I was just sure that this was the face of Lady Gregory. So we're walking along and Lady Gregory turns to me and says, "Let me explain to you the nature of the universe. Now, Philip K. Dick is right about time, but he's wrong that it's 50 A.D. Actually, there's only one instant, and it's right now, and it's eternity. And, it's an instant in which God is posing a question, and that question is basically, "Do you wanna be one with eternity, do you want to be in heaven?" And, we're all saying, "Nooo thank you, not just yet." And so time, is actually just this constant saying "No" to God's invitation. I mean, that's what time is. It's no more 50 A.D. than it's 2001. There's just this one instant, and that's what we're always in. And then she tells me that actually, this is the narrative of everyone's life. Behind the phenomenal difference there is but one story, and that's the story of moving from the "No" to the "Yes." All of life is like, "No thank you, No thank you, No thank you." And then, ultimately, it's, "Yes I give in, Yes I accept, Yes I embrace." I mean, that's the journey. Everyone gets to the "Yes" in the end, right?

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60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

What is infinitely long in two opposite directions, each point is infinitely small and is only measurable in arbitrary defined segments?

A line

I may of course be wrong but I see time and in fact God (at least while I was a JW) in the same light.

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

and, coming soon to your neighborhood, Armegeddon lol

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

Hey myelaine , gotta agree with you there if man is all there is we?re in a lot of trouble.

If we live in a 2 x 3 = 6 kinda world our life is predetermined, forordained and predictable and I guess people would have a disposition one way or another (suddenly I had a vision of guys in white pointy sheets). I don?t understand election in this context???

If this is our world then it seems a bit pointless to me.

In the 2 x a = b kinda world it is possible to predict ?b? when we or God knows the value of ?a?. Something is foreordained if God or us knowingly inserts the value of ?a? or even ?b?.

As regards time, I don?t think its existence is reliant on us measuring it and if God created time I would want to know what he was doing the day before.

To add to czarofmischief post I found this quote

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle One of the basic ideas behind quantum theory/physics/mechanics is the H.U.C. It states, more or less, that the more you know about one aspect of a subatomic particle, the less you can know about the other. This means the more you know about the velocity of a particle, the less you can possible know about it's position. Remember, velocity is speed and direction. This means that you can know with 90% certainty the position of a electron or whatever, but then you can only know with 10% certainty its velocity. Or vise versa, or 50-50, or not know anything at all (the easiest). With H.U.C., a Bose-Einstein Condensate can be formed. By supercooling atoms, they start to move very slowly. This means that you can be pretty sure that the particles have a velocity of near 0. Since you know this with a good deal of certainty, you can't know where it's position is very well, so the atoms become fuzzy and form one big atom called a Bose-Einstein Condensate.

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

That?s cool myelaine , do you think that God lacked the power or didn?t want to create creatures with true free choice?

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

To put it another way

1) The world is like 2 x 3 = 6. In other words the world is totally cause and effect. If you had the computational power you could predict everything hence no free will. I think this is the theory of determinism

2) The world is like 2 x a = b. In other words the answer to ?b? is not able to be worked out until ?a? is known by perhaps the passing of time and events happening hence the possibility of free will

3) Same as 1) but God started it. I think this is the model that Calvin proposed

4) Same as 3) but God doesn?t work out the sum to give the illusion of free will. This is what JW?s teach

5) The same as 2) but God started it. This was the idea I proposed in my letter.

60

God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 in

put your waders on, we?re going in the deep end?.

jw premise: god created jesus, and then together they created everything else.. fact: time and space require at least two points to exist.

you cannot reference time or space with only one thing.. so before god created jesus, there was no way to measure time.

zoolander

As another point of view to ezekiel3?s excellent post I have pasted a letter I wrote to the WT$ along a similar vein. I was counted unofficially as an apostate (thanks guys) for writing this letter and had a posy of elders come round to my place to give me the response which was from what I could work out from the WT$ was ?we don?t know the answer to this at this time?.

I can?t say I necessarily agree with this anymore but somebody may find it interesting to read.

In the Insight Book on page 853 it states ?Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: ?What are you doing?? (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for ?with God all things are possible.? (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for ?everything that he delighted to do he has done.??Ps 115:3.?

There is no doubt that Jehovah can predict the future (along with foreknowledge and consistent with Jehovah?s name there is even less doubt that he causes prophecy to happen compare Am 3:7, 8, Isa 37:24, Rev 12:6 with Mat 24) but is this ability of foreknowledge infinite (Jehovah would have the infinite ability of foreordination Isaiah 55?11 but this is not the subject of this letter), is the belief and teaching of Jehovah?s infinite ability to foreknow the future consistent with God?s word (compare Ecclesiastes 9:11) or is this simply an answer to what Calvin taught?

The text used to prove that Jehovah has an ?infinite ability of foreknowledge? is Mathew 19:26. If we look at this scripture in context with cross reference?s we can see if this proves that Jehovah has an ?infinite ability of foreknowledge?

Mt 19:23-26
?Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to YOU, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle?s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.? 25 When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: ?Who really can be saved?? 26 Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: ?With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Does the context of this scripture suggest that Jesus was discussing the fundamental design of the universe or was he discussing Jehovah?s ability to save people compared to man?s inability? If someone were to say ?this new job has opened up endless possibilities for me? would we then conclude that this man was claiming infinite ability to foresee the future? Surely the word possible must be taken in context or otherwise we would get into circular arguments such as ?can God create a rock that he can?t lift? or ?can god find something that he finds impossible.? Similarly in Mathew 17 Jesus said ?He said to them: ?Because of YOUR little faith. For truly I say to YOU, If YOU have faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU will say to this mountain, ?Transfer from here to there,? and it will transfer, and nothing will be impossible for YOU?. Would we now conclude that Jesus disciples with enough faith have infinite abilities at foresight?

To get a more balanced understanding of this scripture in Mathew we could look at a similar account in Luke 18 which reads 24 Jesus looked at him and said: ?How difficult a thing it will be for those having money to make their way into the kingdom of God! 25 it is easier, in fact, for a camel to get through the eye of sewing needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.? 26 Those who heard this said: ?Who possibly can be saved?? 27 He said: ?The things impossible with men are possible with God.

Here we see a direct contrast between man?s ability and God?s, rather than an across the board claim of infinite ability. The Reference Bible at Zecariah 8:6 ?Although it shall be impossible in the sight of the remaining ones of this people in those days, shall it also be impossible in my sight?? LXX.? It is noteworthy that in the footnote the word ?impossible? in the Greek Septuagint could also be translated into English as the word ?difficult? by the authors of the New World Translation.

Jehovah is All Knowing

There is no statement in the bible I can find that states Jehovah has an infinite ability at foreknowledge. There is no example of Jehovah foretelling the eternal future of an individual unless their life course had already panned out. We could note the example of ones such as Judas who Jesus later spoke of as the ?son of destruction? in John 17:12. It was not inconceivable that Judas could have been forgiven for his sin but Jehovah judges the heart 1 Sam 16:7. The Insight Book clearly defines how much prediction was involved with Judas.

Paul wrote regarding himself In 1 Tim 1:8 ?From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day?. This scripture written in 65 CE after Paul had spent most of his life serving Jehovah. Before this Paul indicates that this acceptance was something he was still striving to achieve (Phil 3:12).

The way that Jehovah eternally judges people (good or bad) is based on what is in a person?s heart according to their actions. If then Jehovah does not have the ability of infinite foreknowledge, could that be consistent with I John 3:19:20 which states, ?By this we shall know that we originate with the truth, and we shall assure our hearts before him 20 as regards whatever our hearts may condemn us in, because God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.??

Yes, because to know all things is to know everything there is to know. If every human?s future was able to be known then according to this scripture Jehovah would know it. Jehovah God is one person who invented and conceived everything down to the tiniest atom. There is nowhere in the bible to suggest that he tunes into the six o?clock news to get updates or has a giant forecasting super computer that he logs into to get predictions on the future. There is also no reason to believe he segregates his mind and puts all the bits of information there that is not convenient to know. Gen 22:12 which reads, ?for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son? would be meaningless if that knowledge existed somewhere in Jehovah?s mind. If there is any doubt as to the extent Jehovah goes to know things please review the scriptures listed here (Prov 15:3, Jere 16:17, 23:24-25, Heb 4:13 Zech 4:10).

Jehovah is All Powerful

Does Jehovah not having the ability of infinite foresight suggest that he is not all powerful? Wouldn?t that mean that Jehovah has power over all that he has created? Surely we would not imagine that Jehovah somehow has created a world where he has implanted some kind of back door just in case things go wrong. Why wouldn?t Jehovah have the power to make a world where people have true free choice (Gen 2 16, 17)?

To illustrate;

A team of competent computer programmers are commissioned to spend 2 years to build a secure system. At the end of this period all the passwords are changed so they don?t have system access. Would it be reasonable (especially in light of security flaws highlighted in the news of the world?s major computer systems) to believe they would be able to break into that system again? The reason they could more than likely break in is because no human can make a perfect system.

Mankind?s modern quest to create intelligent machines (neural networks, robots, artificial intelligence) has proved to be an impossible challenge. So while it is difficult or even impossible for man to create intelligent life with a self defining destiny the scripture in Luke 18:27 (He said: ?The things impossible with men are possible with God.?) could apply.

To believe that Jehovah?s almightiness dictates that he must have the ability to infinitely foresee everything is a short sighted, ?knee jerk? reaction to the word all-powerful. Perhaps this one reason Jehovah said to Moses ?I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty [be´El´ Shad?dai´], but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.? (Ex 6:3). Jehovah?s name along with all the other titles that he is known by gives us a far more balanced idea of how Jehovah created the world!

Jehovah?s all knowingness, prophecy, ?possibility to do things men can?t?, foreknowledge, and foreordination describe only his power and ability but not the reason why he did things. Focusing only on Jehovah?s power gives little evidence as to whether intelligent creatures were created with a predictable or an unpredictable future. The articles you sent me agree that Jehovah does not foresee the eternal future of all individuals (from birth etc). If we look at some of Jehovah?s qualities (excluding the ones already used in the articles you sent me proving Jehovah does not ?use? an infinite ability of foreknowledge) does it suggest that he designed the world with this ability in the first place?

Jehovah?s Wisdom

Psalm 104 24 says, ?How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions?. Would it have been wise for Jehovah to create intelligent creatures with a predictable future? It could have been, if the world was eternally perfect (of course, there would be no free will in this world). To create humans with a predictable future without foreseeing that future first would have been folly considering the consequences.

Jehovah?s word in Proverbs 22, 3 says, ?Shrewd is the one that has seen the calamity and proceeds to conceal himself, but the inexperienced have passed along and must suffer the penalty?. Why would Jehovah have ignored his own wise advice? Imagine the pain he must have suffered hearing his own son beg him to ?remove this cup from me? even crying out ?Abba, Father? (Mark 14 36), and then dying painfully as if a common evildoer, all this for predictable humans? Would we consider a father wise if he lost his family on a camping trip to hyperthermia for the sake of tuning into a radio station to listen to a weather forecast?

It would be wise to create beings that were truly unpredictable free moral agents (though considering Jehovah?s position as the ?happy God? 1st Titus 1, 11 it was an incredibly brave and selfless act) because then Jehovah will have individuals serve him eternally not because of law or some genetic advantage but out of love. Unlike law, which Adam broke soon after being created, Jehovah wisely would have known that ?love never fails?. (1st Corinthians 13, 8). The bible clearly shows though that Jehovah wisely has an ultimate outcome and will not allow the world to continually be plagued by wickedness (compare Rev 1, 8 Isaiah 45, 18 Isaiah 55, 11 Psalms 37 10-11, 29).

Jehovah?s Justice

Exodus 21:36 says ?Or if it was known that a bull was in the habit of goring formerly but its owner would not keep it under guard, he should without fail make compensation with bull for bull, and the dead one will become his own.?. Would the argument stand that the owner had chosen to personally not know what his bull had done; now he had the ability to reasonably foreknow the outcome of his bull if left unguarded?

Galatians 5:14 says ?For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: ?You must love your neighbour as yourself?. If we had the ability to foreknow something serious that would affect our neighbour but choose not to look it up; could we say that we fulfilling the scripture above?

If Jehovah was to stand before a court of law; would the judge find it acceptable that six thousand years of human suffering could have been avoided by simply looking up our eternal futures and perhaps giving Adam a different genetic makeup? If Jehovah used the argument that he didn?t look up our futures to protect ?free will?, would not the prosecuting lawyer in this hypothetical court argue that people didn?t really have free will and this was just an excuse to play out some kind of game.

This court will never happen because Deuteronomy 32:4,5 says ?The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted.?

Acts 10:34, 35 says ?At this Peter opened his mouth and said: ?For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him?. Would Jehovah have inspired Luke to record Peter?s speech if he had created people with a predictable future? If our eternal futures were predictable would not our genetic makeup?s come into play as to whether we where righteous or not? Is it possible that people have used this belief; that God has some how ?fated? them (whether directly or indirectly) to their lot in life (e.g. taking no responsibility to learn about God or perhaps believing they had a natural superiority because of heritage like the Pharisees of Jesus time)? If this belief where true would not Jehovah be some what responsible for the racial wars that have plagued human history?

A strict belief in fate is the worst of slavery, imposing upon our necks an everlasting lord and tyrant, whom we are to stand in awe of night and day. - Epicurus