Hey Hawk. Now that you have the authentic UN letter in your hot little hands, when are you going to feed it into the scanner.
biblexaminer ....impatient class
biblexaminer
JoinedPosts by biblexaminer
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Get the Original WT UN NGO application?
by VM44 inperhaps this has already been talked about on the massive.
wt un ngo thread, but.... can someone get a photocopy of the original ngo membership.
application the watchtower filled out?.
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Help fo questioning JWs
by biblexaminer in[p]dear {jw person}[/p].
[p]you are on a quest.
as i said on the phone, you have to decide what you are looking for.
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biblexaminer
[P]Dear {JW PERSON}[/P]
[P]You are on a quest. As I said on the phone, you have to decide what you are looking for. If you are looking for a reason to go to the Kingdom Hall, then you will surely find it, but understand that your problem will not go away. You will still face the issues later.[/P]
[P]It's like buying a car. What are you looking for? Will you buy on looks? … Or will you do honest research? If you buy on looks, then later your decision may come back to haunt you. In the case at hand, I guarantee that whatever your decision, when later arrives, it will matter.[/P]
[P]If you decide to go the Watchtower way, you can, and will, do more searching later. But by then you most probably will have suffered and will suffer further.[/P]
[P] ;[/P]
[P]The below discussion can easily be used to demonstrate what is at stake. Follow with me.[/P][P]I will present you with a situation through which you can discern the truth and this will be but one brick in the wall, which will aid you in your quest for an answer as to what you should do. [/P]
[P]Sit down with an elder and tell him that you have a problem with the Society's dating and the Gentile times calculations. Tell him that you have trouble accepting that the Gentile times ended in 1914.[/P]
[P]He will go on to show you the calculations leading up to 1914. Let him explain it to you, after which, offer the objection that "that only works if the date for Jerusalem's fall is taken to be 607 BCE". Tell him that you found out that the "astronomically confirmed date[FONT SIZE=2]"[/FONT] for Jerusalem's fall to Babylon is 586 BCE as found in any encyclopedia.[/P]
[P]Depending on just how ignorant the elder is, he will hum 'n ha that 'we cannot accept "astronomical dates" over the Bible', and that the 'Bible is the absolute authority.' At this point ask him to show you where the Bible shows the 607BCE date. He will say that the Bible doesn't provide that date, but that we calculate it as 70 years before Babylon's fall.[/P]
[P]Then, ask him where in the Bible we find the date for Babylon's fall. He again will hum 'n ha about how "everybody accepts that Babylon fell in 539" BCE. Tell him that it seems that "everybody" accepts that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole. Say that you want facts.[/P]
[P]He is right that the 539 date is accepted as correct, but by the same people who advance the 586 date as being correct. That's the point. So you must ask him to prove the 539 date, so that the facts came come to light.[/P]
[P]He will say that he has to do research and come back. I assure you that he has never done any till this point. He has only accepted the 539 date as he has been told. And as I said, 539 is correct. The point is this, 539 "[FONT SIZE=2]is an astronomically confirmed date"[/FONT] and this, the elder does not know.[/P]
[P]If you can, have him write down his opinion that "astronomical dates are not accurate" Remember to insist that astronomical dates are absolute. Make sure that he expresses himself against astronomical dates. Get him to write this down in his own handwriting and words.[/P]
[P]Either then or later, when you get together again, discuss the information below from the Insight on the Scriptures[/P]
[P] [/P]
[FONT SIZE=5][P]Insight on the Scriptures (vol.1,page 452,3)[/P]
[/FONT]
[P] Babylonian Chronology. [FONT SIZE=2]Babylon enters the Biblical picture principally from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II onward. The reign of Nebuchadnezzar's father Nabopolassar marked the start of what is called the Neo-Babylonian Empire; it ended with the reigns of Nabonidus and his son Belshazzar and the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus the Persian. This period is of great interest to Bible scholars since it embraces the time of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and the greater part of the 70-year period of Jewish exile.[/P]
[P] Jeremiah 52:28 says that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar) the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. In harmony with this, a cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) states: "The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2Ki 24:1-17; [/P]
[P] v1p453[/P]
[P]2Ch 36:5-10.) (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 326) For the final 32 years of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, there are no historical records of the chronicle type except a fragmentary inscription of a campaign against Egypt in Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year.[/P]
[P] For Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach, 2Ki 25:27, 28), tablets dated up to his second year of rule have been found. For Neriglissar, considered to be the successor of Awil-Marduk, contract tablets are known dated to his fourth year.[/P]
[P] A Babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting Babylonian chronology with Biblical chronology. This tablet contains the following astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II: "Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2/3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached." (Inschriften von Cambyses, K"nig von Babylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, by F. X. Kugler, Mnster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71) These two lunar eclipses can be identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer's Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date.[/P][P] Since the seventh year of Cambyses II began in spring of 523 B.C.E., his first year of rule was 529 B.C.E. and his accession year, and the last year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon, was 530 B.C.E. The latest tablet dated in the reign of Cyrus II is from the 5th month, 23rd day of his 9th year. (Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.-A.D. 75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14) As the ninth year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon was 530 B.C.E., his first year according to that reckoning was 538 B.C.E. and his accession year was 539 B.C.E.[/P][/FONT]
[P] ;[/P]
[P]Now the elder is in a pickle. He has spoken against "astronomical" date setting, saying that the Bible is superior. But alas, as much as I love and believe in the Bible, it has no dates. We depend 100% on archeology and astronomy to provide ancient dates. If we are to accept the 539 date for Babylon's fall, then we must also accept the 586 date for Jerusalem's fall as both dates come from the same sources. If you throw out the 586 date, then you must also discard the 539 date, and hence there is no starting point for any 70 year calculation.[/P][P]Either way, 607 is demonstrated as false. What about the elder? He will almost certainly stick to whatever the Society teaches, even if it means preaching that the Moon is made of green cheese. He will not be concerned about "the truth" but rather he will be concerned about sticking to a religious authority.[/P]
[P]You will see it with your own eyes. You will need to decide what you want. Blind adherence to a set of dictates such as the elder has, or truth… the real stuff.[/P]
[P]This experience will set the stage for your future, in or out of the organization. Up till now you have been viewed as a young person who slipped away to experience the world. They know that in most cases, individuals like this will come back as they get older. [/P]
[P]But after this experience, you will be viewed in a whole new light. The elder will view you as dangerous because you refuted him successfully. He will fear you as all those who fear truth do. The elders will discuss your case and they will quickly realize that you are a loose cannon. They will come to see that they need to "deal with you".[/P]
[P]They will form a Judicial Committee and question you. The primary questions they will ask will concern your view of the Organization and it's teachings. "Do you accept that the Watchtower is God's channel?" You will again bring up your questions, which they will refuse to address. You will feel the heavy hand of the Organization on you. [/P]
[P]When it's all said and done, you will have witnessed the difference between truth, and religious authority. They will disfellowship you and cause your own mother to shun you. The reality of my earlier email to you, about how they seek to destroy you, will now hit home.[/P]
[P]I spent a lot of time on this email, so I am going to remove your name and post it on the JW board because I think there are lurkers who could benefit. I hope you don't mind.[/P]
[P]I will send my papers on biblical discussions later. I hope they help. And please, read the books on the organizations history and meditate on what you learn.[/P]
[P]biblexaminer.[/P]
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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biblexaminer
Let's not let this die. If we all get behind this and get it out, it could be the straw that broke the camel's back.
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to hawkaw: re scan of Hoeffel's fax
by fodeja inhawkaw,.
i've seen the scan of paul hoeffel's fax over at kent's website.
if i understand it correctly, you created the scanned jpg and sent that file to kent and others.. i'd like to suggest something to improve the credibility of this thing - namely, to create a higher quality jpg from the original document.
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biblexaminer
Everyone here needs to take this into account.. this is only the first copy of this letter. It was made from a fax.
The real thing, the actual ORIGINAL letter from the U.N. will be in Hawkaw's hand in a few days, so he can scan it and make a nice copy in a better format.
I want to take this opportunity to tell Hawk that I appreciate all his hard work.
He is not a JW and never has been. The whole thing of his involvement with us Dubs (and former Dubs) was a matter of curiosity, and he was "sucked in" by the 'twist' of this phenomenon which has become our lives.
Hawkaw is just a guy who knows a few Dubs and somehow tagged on to us. He got interested and saw an opportunity to help some God forsaken folks who had their foot in a "bear trap".
Thanks Hawk and remember to do some work for your employer too. :)
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biblexaminer
This is good to know. My Dad keeps asking about it and I keep saying... it's coming... it's coming...
Today I am going to meet a reporter from Southwestern Ontario's best read newspaper. I am going to lay out on the table all the info about how I contacted Paul Hoffel at the UN and the Guardian articles... and the rest of the story.
I will also tell him about Dateline.
Goodbye Watchtower...
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New Guardian Article
by Trilobite inhere: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/story/0,2763,574175,00.html
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Nov 15 Watchtower article regarding Hypocrisy
by chester ini started reading the november 15th watchtower this mroning.. you guys really have to read it.. on page 21 there is an article entitled, "how do you handle hypocrisy?".
in light of all of the things that have transpired during the last month and a half concerning all of the talk about the wt and their involvement with the united nations, i read it right away.
one of the paragraphs has a statement that reads: first, we must learn to identify hypocrites.
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biblexaminer
I will send a scan in the morning Halk.
Funny thing. As soon as I got the Nov 1... I scanned the articles (eyes only) and saw the article. My dad was over for dinner and I mentioned it to him afterwards. I wanted to make a post, cause I could'nt believe THEIR hypocrisy!
And when I got on the board, here it was already.
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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biblexaminer
Can you just see the looks on the faces of the dub trolls.
The Canadian Branch office and it's director are going to get a copy in a very special way.
I hope his wife won't be a widow too soon. She almost was -the last time dear Ken got a note.
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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biblexaminer
BUDDA BING
I was junping in my chair when it downloaded. I sent copies out already.
I want to finish these lying bastards.
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BIBLEEXAMINER - I need your HELP...
by OhHappyDay inhi examiner,.
i used an info that you posted the way i understood it.. the 2oo years comment, in the specialmeeting.. i live in europe,so you and others were my only source about those meetings.. i told my family about it,and at first there were good results.but now they insist if that was well-understood.
please repeat your message.
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biblexaminer
Samuel Herd said "imagine in 200 years we will be in the new system....blah blah blah"
The point is, if the GB are so sure that the end is SOOOOO close, then why not say "imagine being in the new system in TEN years... or twenty".... but 200! thats such a copout.