Posts by euripides

22

What's the deal?

by kwintestal in

with the bible god and genitals?.

we had a mini-discussion about this in chat last night.

what are your thoughts?.

euripides

I think of the issue of circumcision, and I am in the process of looking deeper into the roots of this practice, besides being a form of mutilation of distinction.

12

noah and da flood

by el jarocho mayor in

so i have dis question..... as a kid growing up jw..i was always told dat da big j in da sky was da one dat created all living things on earth.

dat they were perfectly created and wit specif functions and all.

so, can anybody tell me whats up with the polar bear, and for dat matter any animal dat lives in da north or south pole?

I think I'm going to virtually hijack this topic at this point and offer, a la Leolaia, a more indepth analysis for those who might be interested. These are adapted from notes for a class (on the Bible of course!) I teach, and I should credit my Unitarian minister for his theological input in developing these ideas. If this sounds a little dry, I apologize, and, as always, if this is too much, then by all means, just pass me by! However, I welcome any feedback over what is presented here.

The flood story is best understood in the context of the entire mythic cycle of Gen. 1-11. One model of viewing the structure of these first eleven chapters of Genesis is in the form of Gen 1 ? 2:4a as a Prologue to the Primeval History, setting the context and content of creation. Following this Prologue are stories as four cycles that are a re-casting of the four seasonal cycles transformed into a pre-historical context. Each cycle (Gen 3 [Adam & Eve], Gen 4 [Cain & Abel], Gen 6 ? 9 [Noah & the Flood] & Gen 11 [the Tower of Babel]) consists of the brokenness of relation, accountability to actions, and redemption as assurance of continued life. Interspersed between the 2 nd and 3 rd cycle is an Interlude of the genealogy of Cain & Seth (1:18-26), followed by a second Interlude, the genealogy of Adam & Noah (5:1-32, with Enoch taken up by God). Between the 3 rd and last cycle is a third Interlude of the Sons of Noah (9:18-28) and a fourth Interlude, the Peopling of the Earth (10:1-32). Following the 4 th cycle is a last Interlude as the genealogy of Shem. Following this last of the five genealogical Interludes, the pre-historical cyclical events break into the linear journey of Abraham and Sarah into ?historical time.?

(I know that some challenge the conventional dating of these source texts.)

The story of Noah and the Flood is a merging of ?J? (dated to the 10 th -century BCE) and ?P? (dated to the 6 th -century BCE) texts with roots extending to the Sumerian period (ca. 3,000 BCE);

The Prologue (3:1-10) is enigmatic in biblical scholarship. It appears to be an echo of a previous mythos that lingered in the ?J? text. It also seems to be a restatement of the longing of humanity to achieve immortality, by linking ?the divine beings? (sons of God) with the daughters of men, implying some sort of divine longevity. However, vs. 3, a statement of human life-span expectancy (re: an echo of being driven out of the Garden of Eden), is an intrusive insertion into the fabric of the original story of the Nephilim, ?the Fellers,? those who cause one to fall off or diminish. Noah, like Enoch (5:24), ?walked with God,? ending the essentially ?J? text with a ?P? conclusion.
Gen 6:11-22 is a ?P? text, with God = Elohim as the marker, plus the intense attention to detail (vs. 14-16), and Noah doing as God commands (vs. 22). The main twist to this story drawn from earlier ones is the replacement of the whimsy or conniving of the deities to sadness and regret of God (6:7 indicating destruction of the contents of the cosmos) or the disdain for the corruption (perhaps the consequences of wrong choices) of the earth itself and all living things (6:11-13 destroying the cosmos as well as the contents). Noah is commanded to take into the ark his family and two of all living creatures.
The ?J? text has Noah taking seven pairs of clean animals and two of unclean (7:2-3), revealing the existence of the Mosiac tradition in its writing. ?P? picks up the thread in vs. 6 with a contradiction of the ?J? animal sorting by restating just two of each kind (vs. 8-9 & 15). The remainder of Chapter 7 is essentially ?P? (with the obvious exception of vs. 16b being a ?J?) to the extent the text can be sorted with certainty. Given the liturgical (that is repetitious) nature of the passages, describing the ordeal of water chaos falling through the firmament (rain) and bursting from the ground (as a river would flood), destroying all that was created, the inclination toward this being a ?P? text is possible.
?P? continues in 8:1-14 in the closure of the chaos and the reclaiming the earth. 8:15-19 is a moment of re-creation with all in the ark released to a new earth, ending the ?P? portion. The ?J? (with LORD = Adonai as the marker) tells of Noah offering a sacrifice to God (hence the need for more clean animals; perhaps the ?P? text is a polemic since only the Priests offer sacrifices, therefore only two of every kind) clearly revealing a ?J? anthropomorphic God ?smelling? the ?pleasing odor,? and thereby swearing never to ?doom the earth because of man? even though ?the devisings of man?s mind are evil? (not the nature of humanity) indicating perhaps an echo of knowing of the limitlessness of knowledge but retaining the flaw of fallibility and vulnerability. The Chapter ends with a poem that may be older than the written text.
The ?P? text in 9:1-7 is a rephrasing of the earlier ?be fruitful and multiply? command, and the admonition not to do one thing (as in the original): ?You must not, however, eat flesh with its life-blood in it? (vs. 4). This is followed by the command applicable to animals as well as humans. Then an enigmatic poem suggesting an eye for an eye with a curious ending about humans in the image of God (vs. 6).
The ?P? text continues in 9:8-17 with an expansion of the original covenant only with Noah (6:18) to include all humanity and ?all flesh that is on the earth? (vs. 17), symbolized by the rainbow.
The sons of Noah (Shem, Ham and Japheth) are restated for the fourth of five times in 9:18 (also 5:32, 6:10 and 7:13, and again in 10:1) to indicate national or racial origins. Shem probably is the mythical source of the Semites. Ham is identified as the source of the Canaanites. Japheth is problematic, but probably the source of Africans, both Mediterranean and sub-Saharan.
Ham becomes the target of an egregious indiscretion. This is not surprising since Canaan, taken over by the Israelites in the ?J? period, probably still has pockets of remnant populations of Canaanites as a thorn in the national side. Given 9:20-27 is a ?P? text, however, it is probably a specific reference to those non-Israelites who replaced the population of Judah after the forced evacuation into Exile by the Babylonians. The text is evasive as to Ham?s indiscretion. The phrase ?saw his father?s nakedness? in vs. 22 is a veiled (more specifically, a backward cloaking) reference to Ham sleeping with Noah?s wife, his mother. Clearly this is a polemic against the Canaanites as bastards born from an incestuous relationship. Hence, the command that Canaanites be slaves to both the progeny of Shem and Japheth.

Some further observations that I have made about this story:

The fact that ?J? texts were retained by the ?P? authors and editors meant an adoration of the earlier literature, holding it to be sacred, and therefore untouchable. As is typical for the later editors, the task was to weave relevant contemporary texts and stories into the older fabric without violating the sacredness of the originating body of literature. Communal identity was at stake, and in the ancient world, the older the tradition, the more sacred and respected. This was one reason the Romans allowed special dispensations to the Judeans, because everyone knew Moses pre-dated Plato.
The most disturbing aspect of the story of Noah and the Flood is the apparent cruelty of God. Perhaps looking at the story from a humanistic rather than theistic point of view, the ?cruelty? is a consequence of the choices made by humans. The consequences of wrong choices jeopardizes both the social and cosmic order, as was believed in ancient times, and continues to this day with the ecology replacing references to God. This aspect of consequences of choice is reinforced as the prominent theme beginning with the eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and continued in the cyclical stories as offered above. In our present day, we?ve disconnected the relationship between social and cosmic order. However, that social/cosmic order is referred to in today?s religious language as the establishment of universal peace and justice, a concept used by the ancient Israelites. The brokenness of human and social relationships is perhaps ?the devisings of man?s mind are evil? (with the key word being ?devisings?) not that humans are evil, since all were created in the image of God. In a subsistence environment, natural calamities were seen as an effect based upon a cause ? usually the displeasure of the deities due to human error and evil.
The question of why water the instrument of destruction may reside in the paradoxical nature of the medium. In a subsistence environment, water is a precious and valuable giver of life. Without it, all life would perish. Yet, with the lingering memories of the previous cultures in Mesopotamia (the land between two rivers, Tigris and Euphrates) where irrigation was the key to survival, when abundant snow melts would come crashing down the river channels, all was destroyed. Water then had the paradox of life giving and life taking. This paradoxical image persists in the ?P? texts, due to the close contact to the generating mythos extant in Babylon during the Exile.
Another generating mythos is the story of the flood in the Sumerian ?Epic of Gilgamesh.? This myth is the framework upon which the ?P? text hangs. Portions are verbatim. The protagonist, Utnapishtim, is changed to Noah, and the cause of the Flood is altered from the whimsy of the deities to the regret and sorrow illustrated above. It is interesting that because of Utnapishtim?s devotion, he and his wife are granted immortality. The most the ?P? could do with Noah was to say he ?walked with God,? as did Enoch, but died and was not ?taken up? by God.
All of creation is encapsulated in the Ark in the midst of chaos/water ? humans, animals and plants for food (?For your part, take everything that is eaten and store it away, to serve as food for you and for them? [6:21]). The essence of creation is all that remains after the Flood. (Some wise children will always ask, ?What about the fish?? which are obviously omitted because water is their element of survival.) The time during the Flood is approximately nine months, an obvious relation to human gestation. There then followed 40 days for the earth to dry before a new creation emerges from the Ark ? a new birth of creation out of the Ark as the womb. Geenrally speaking, for something new to have meaning, something from the past must be preserved ? in this case the contents of the Ark being the contents of a new creation.
The image of the Flood is a limited one geographically. It is not presenting the entire globe of the earth inundated with unimaginable amounts of water. Even though there is many flood stories in many cultures around the world, each story is generated by a specific geographic center ? the known ?world? to the peoples in the immediate region. In terms of the human condition, a catastrophic flood would wipe out both the physical ?world? and the psychological ?world? of a specific geographical location. With the ?P? text borrowing significantly from the earlier mythos, the mountains of Ararat (8:4; note the plural) were the highest known points in their ?world.?
The ?P? authors and editors may have devised the four pre-historical cycles to illustrate the failure of fulfilling the promise of Israel. The message could be one of hope ? that out of the chaos of a devastating defeat at the hands of the Babylonians, will come redemption in the form of a new nation of Israel. With ?P? determination and zeal, not to mention perseverance, this time ?We?ll get it right!? Well, maybe ? since subsequent history shows otherwise. Perhaps these stories of the angst of the human condition can continue to speak to us today. Such periodic celebrations as Yom Kippur are a reminder of these pre-historic cycles and our daily cycles.

14

John 18 Quid est veritas? - Who was right: Pilate or Jesus?

by Pole in

it's a doctrinal question.

of course the gospel of john may have been written by someone who made this conversation up.

but let's assume it really did take place between pilate and jesus christ.. john 1837"you are a king, then!

euripides

frankiespeakin.. you say

The question was never answered. Typical evengelical style if you ask me (ie.. Those who love the lord look for the smallest opening to give a witness even in vague answers to questions).

I suspect the question was never answered because it was a rhetorical question. And hybridous is correct, the purpose of it is presumptively to demonstrate that Pilate and Jesus are not even on the same page, let alone that they happen to be in the same room.

When I was a child this response put in the mouth of Pilate struck a very responsive chord. In essence it says, "what on earth are you talking about?" Did anyone see the way the line was delivered in Latin in Gibson's Passion? I thought, this is the only line I've read in this story that makes any sense? It's not just a relativist question...Jesus is the one playing fast and loose with semantics in the word 'truth.' JWs also use this as the high-water mark of their defense of anti-intellectualism: How Dare Haughty Pilate talk to the Son of God like that! To me, it's an honest question, and as you point out, one that speaks to feelings. It's quite in keeping with John's characterizations also to have Jesus speaking elliptically and Pilate come across as out of the loop and forgivable, sinless compared to the "Jews."

The most difficult element of this Gospel to me is for the lines delivered by the "other side" to be the ones I agree with the most, like cheering when the serpent of Genesis or Job's comforters speak.

29

Cretans always lie, said the Cretan

by euripides in

titus 1:12,13 from the nasb .

one of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

" this witness is true.

euripides

Yes, I think the Pastoralist's perception of the two groups is to lump them in similar denouncement, but he may suspect his audience still distinguishes the two, hence the rhetorical devices. And therein you may have found the key to this verse after all...this form of rhetoric appeals to the rationale of the audience but may not reveal the true attitude of the author, insofar as he/she is drawing upon the audience's worldview rather than necessarily subscribing to his own. But I am troubled by that little touch of an affirmation..."this is true," as if there were doubt or that it needed rhetorical emphasis. It's basically what's causing my confusion as to what level the writer is working from. Ultimately, as has been pointed out, the purpose of citing this "prophet's" words is to emphasize the falsity of Cretan claims, which are lumped together with all other incipient Gnostic elements, like genealogies, etc.

29

Cretans always lie, said the Cretan

by euripides in

titus 1:12,13 from the nasb .

one of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

" this witness is true.

euripides

Leolaia--the difference between Judeo-Christians and non-Christian Judaism for the Pastoralist may have to do with geography, Antioch, Jamnia, what's left of Jerusalem, etc. What I mean by that is the communities which were established in those cities and how they were distinct from each other; insofar as Jamnia become the center of Jewish worship after 70, the influence of the writings of the Pharisaic sages was no longer tenable against the Judeo-Christians who were active in Asia Minor, Syria, etc. I think this is one possibility, even as much as the term "Jewish" is being used as a broad polemic by the Pastoralist.

I tie in geography because ultimately, the Pastoralist is attacking a Cretan teaching as the corrupt views are associated geographically with the people.

29

Cretans always lie, said the Cretan

by euripides in

titus 1:12,13 from the nasb .

one of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

" this witness is true.

euripides

Isn't it interesting that the Cretans by use of a modified Euhemeral idea became the scorn of antiquity? And that this belief was not too far removed from the legacy of the empty tomb of Jesus apotheosized? I like your idea Narkissos, of the anti-Pauline school being attacked through this quotation, it makes sense rhetorically. And Leolaia, well, girl you just continue to sweep me off my feet with your encyclopedic approach. Now this is what it's all about!

29

Cretans always lie, said the Cretan

by euripides in

titus 1:12,13 from the nasb .

one of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

" this witness is true.

euripides

As you say Leolaia, the matter may be more subtle. For it seems to take a popular maxim which may well have been understood to be a paradox (or an intended one) but tweaks it and appropriates it in hyperbolic fashion. Later New Testament writing commonly does this, wherein I think we are missing part of an already inside joke. I would suggest there is a deliberate ambiguity perhaps, in that the listener, if aware, will understand, but if not will go on as if no paradox was invoked. A clever rhetorical device!

Either that or the writer really had no clue what he was writing about.

7

Jedi Mind Tricks

by euripides in

ok so now you're wondering what i might be thinking.

well, its about the anointed, the spiritual jedi of the wt society.

(someone a while back said star wars was sooo jw.

euripides

OK so now you're wondering what I might be thinking. Well, its about the Anointed, the spiritual Jedi of the WT society. (Someone a while back said Star Wars was sooo JW.) I'd like to compare notes on all the proclaiming members of the Anointed whom you may have come into contact with. Most of those whom I knew were eccentric, to say the least. And not a few claimed to be able to do Jedi Mind Tricks...

19

If you could meet (and talk to) any Bible scholar, who would it be?

by euripides in

i'd like to get a sense of the scholars any of you out there appreciate most and who's hot right now (in the academic fields!)...

i always liked burton mack myself.

well, who would you love to meet?

euripides

Ok I've had more time to think about it, I'd like to meet Julius Wellhausen and Leolaia:-)

13

Wierd Stuff

by SWALKER in

i know this may sound strange but i would like some input on the following.

i have a handful of friends (some in the org and some out) that are saying that "god" is talking to them.

he is communicating directly or using an angel.

euripides

Swalker...That peculiar certainty that "change has got to come" is most likely a projection of wish-fulfillment, as in, by force of will these things can come to pass. Sometimes, it may seem that energies and signs are available to those who are receptive, i.e., a major catastrophic terrorist attack had been planned for a long time, and in Feb of 1993 there was an attack on the Twin Towers, but it didn't bring them down. And Armageddon is one of those things which has been predicted for nearly 2,000 years, for good reason...As another poster indicated, stressful times tend to foster such apocalyptic mentalities.

Is there such a thing as a collective panic or collective anxiety disorder? I think so, inasmuch as mob mentality exists also. As I say, for sensitive individuals its not hard to pick up on signs of obvious things to happen, for instance I was sure that there would be an assassination attempt on our sitting President, only to hear that there may have indeed been the plan somewhere along the way. I'm not crazy, just adding up the factors of widespread disenfranchisement and discontent, the collective anxiety of those yearning for change, and sometimes, as in Revolution, desperation gets taken one step too far. These things do happen in the course of human events, judging by history. Do they portend great and cataclysmic cosmic events? Maybe, maybe not. Is that the same as Armageddon? Not in the sense that JWs are thinking. Years ago I had the pleasure of talking to Gary Botting, author of The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses by telephone, and I had finished reading his book and was quite taken by some of his arguments. But, the issue of Armageddon troubled me, haunted me if you will. (I hear it troubles many ex-JWs.) So I asked him, "What do you think of Armageddon?" He replied, "It Already Happened."
"When?" I inquired incredulously.

"World War II" was his answer. So, at that moment, I realized, we don't need to wait for divinely produced horrors to have some of our own right here and now, in the form of global war, genocide, etc. Terrorism seems to be the latest installment in a long chain of misconduct inducing great human misery and depleting valuable resources, including a great deal of psychic energy that some individuals could be channeling into putting back into their communities and organizing their lives rather than trying to needlessly whip people up into frenzies. It is so easy to fall into the trap, because most of us want change. We crave it, especially if we are not content with what we have, or feel injustice is being perpetrated. Ordinarily, that is a proper reaction, in my view, but thinking that it must be a harbinger of divine intervention goes completely in the wrong direction. Passively allowing international horrors to take place as if they fulfill a grand plan of destruction and mayhem is sociopathic, in my opinion.

As far as communicating with the "other world," reality checks are always useful in times like these. Take stock of what is and is not in order in your life, and think about the lives of those who are experiencing these things. Perhaps by ordering certain facets then anxiety can be abated, thereby diminishing the need to exert a veneer of "control" over the "Uncontrollable." Take care of yourself.