rune

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Posts by rune

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  21

  returning to this site...

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello everyone... i am returning after vanishing from this place over a year.

  i don't recognize anyone, sorry :s i grew up in arnprior, ontario of canada, which is not far from ottawa, the capital city of the country (the place i live now).

  i was raised in a strict witness upbringing until i was 15, when i got loose finally.

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  rune

  Yes, the internet is quite something... After relationships failed to provide any long-lasting solace from all that garbage that happened in the past, I too ended up smoking marijuana, starting at age 20. In fact, I'm high right now. I smoked a joint before I got some fruit and veggies from the store. I don't really have a serious problem though, I just need to work myself out of the familiar mental rut that seems to resemble 'those times' so I can be motivated and achieve all the things I want to... but nah instead I'm chilling in the heat smoking pot and blasting music......... life is good
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  22

  Things JW's Say: "In the New Order, I will <insert activity here>."

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the most notorious things that jw's like to talk about are their expectations for the new order.

  they talk about what things will be like, the kind of activities they'll enjoy, how resurrection will work, what the "worldwide cleanup work" will entail, which houses they'll appropriate, how they'll finally be able to have the kids they've put off, and so on.

  here are some of the things i've heard witnesses say about the new order: they would personally explore the moons of jupiter for possible human colonization they would eat meat, since isaiah talks about "well oiled dishes filled with marrow" they would travel the world they would learn to play the piano they would research the "other scrolls that would be opened" they would play football (but not tackle football) they would have bible studies with newly resurrected ones they would speak hebrew (it's the language god gave adam and eve, you know, and we'll all have one language in the new order...) they would literally never feel any pain sensations ever again, even if they banged their elbow.

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  rune

  "...be made perfect!" "What's perfect?" "W-well, ...it's having all the flaws in your body fixed by Jehovah." "Oh... like bad teeth and scars?" "Yeah! He'll even cure weight problems, and ugliness!" "You sound so relieved." "I can't wait to play-wrestle with a polar bear, or play fetch with a wolf!" "You first..."
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  21

  returning to this site...

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello everyone... i am returning after vanishing from this place over a year.

  i don't recognize anyone, sorry :s i grew up in arnprior, ontario of canada, which is not far from ottawa, the capital city of the country (the place i live now).

  i was raised in a strict witness upbringing until i was 15, when i got loose finally.

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  rune

  Hello everyone... I am returning after vanishing from this place over a year. I don't recognize anyone, sorry :S I grew up in Arnprior, Ontario of Canada, which is not far from Ottawa, the capital city of the country (the place I live now). I was raised in a strict Witness upbringing until I was 15, when I got loose finally. Anyone else in this situation (raised in the Witnesses then got out)? Anyone from Ontario or Canada in general read this site? Give me a holler in this thread :) Sometimes it's hard to find common ground with other people who don't have the same background...
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  12

  just wanted to say hello

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i have been quiet for a while... i am sorry my friends, hopefully i will think of something meaningful to say again someday, something we can all discuss and enjoy.

  things will never be the same again, and i hope that from this passing shadow to the next you find a piece of what you are looking for.. the tiniest things can make the most enormous differences.... i wish you all well.

  --daniel

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  rune

  I know I have been quiet for a while... I am sorry my friends, hopefully I will think of something meaningful to say again someday, something we can all discuss and enjoy. Things will never be the same again, and I hope that from this passing shadow to the next you find a piece of what you are looking for.

  The tiniest things can make the most enormous differences...

  I wish you all well

  --Daniel
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  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  czarofmischiefb: Um, ok, so you're trying to live up to your name by repeating some of the same old wrong things that formerout and LittleToe said earlier in this post I take it? Is it possible you could drop it? I'm not going to repeat the replies I made the to them again and again to you.

  frenchbabyface: The lesson we should learn from them is life is too short to try to understand others. Mockery is so much easier than debating. Oh well, no matter, it just means I have to change my expectations when I post
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  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  czarofmischief: So you have the same old story. Why did you even bother?

  frenchbabyface: You are making a good point (at least to me) about the way things should be...but um, some people other than us are hung up on past issues like, for instance, saying I am a youthful non-believer who just needs to be exposed to that almighty powerful spirit so I can be just like 95% of the world. 'Cuz hell, it's so simple, why didn't I think of it? The majority is never wrong, stupid, or misguided, right?
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  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  rune (yes I'm talking to myself):

  You won't get this boring gray utopian paradise of love you dream of.

  It's funny how this sounds compared to what I've been saying lately. Communism is a bleak prospect in some ways. Everyone gets the same things, the same 'opportunities'. No one is favored over another...at least to the best that society can operate. So I ask you all...

  Would a world without danger, chance, tragedy & sadness be worth living in?

  Perhaps the phrase 'everything is as it should be' has more to it than just rhetoric...
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  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  SixofNine:

  Whatever the world *is*, now, is most certainly not what it "always has been".

  Actually it's not a great idea to quote only parts of sentences when it takes the meaning of the whole sentence away from it.

  What I said was:

  And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I see the world staying the same as it always has been - the strong rule, the weak suffer.

  You're saying it hasn't always been this way? Please explain.

  frenchbabyface: Surely you are right...I mean, just because things can't be perfect doesn't mean we can't try. I just think holding visions of 'paradise' in one's heart is foolish...but working to improve things for everyone isn't bad. What I was saying earlier was more to stress that despite any efforts made to improve things, there are so many people out there unwilling to steer their lives with the same sentiments as these noble ones that we cannot expect to see anything close to this utopian idea (not perfect) in our lifetimes. Even so, one step at a time I guess...just because we can't have it now doesn't mean we can't try, I suppose. Then there is the little matter of only thinking, and doing.

  Those who can make the biggest effect by nurturing these sentiments are those with the wealth / the power. People who are working 9-to-5 jobs, barely making ends meet and have families to raise really don't have a choice but to look out for their own, at least not without devoting all their free time to some cause (and who knows if that will do any good). But those who have wealth/power get quite comfortable with it I would imagine...the problem doesn't exist for them - they are on the smaller, beneficiary side of the scale. It is a tricky problem to deal with, since those who could help are the ones benefitting from the problems existing. Not all rich/powerful people are like this, but it is easy to see why one wouldn't want to disrupt their own life of splendour to help some people they never met. For many, altruism above and beyond the call of duty is not desired.

  I don't want to rip the silver lining from any clouds by this line of thinking. I realize some think it is pessimistic, but I don't really see it that way at all. Coming to grips with a real problem that is hard to solve is the first step in thinking of a really effective solution (hopefully). That is why I prefer using the term realism rather than pessimism. Optimistic views are great for motivating oneself and for energy to do what needs to be done, but they are almost a flight of fancy - without someone to consider the real grit and consequences/reaction to an action an optimist may find themselves sorely disappointed. Since people don't have to work alone, no one has to abandon optimism if they like it. They should just work with realists... Vague, I know... I am speaking about banding together to take some kind of action. But what action? What would be most effective? To address which part of the problem? This takes a lot of consideration...
• 
  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  kitties_and_horses_oh_my!: Naw, I only said I wasn't expecting any kind of response that would satisfy me (that is, where I would go: "hmm ok that sounds right, thanks I'm done"). Excellent point using karma as an example...I hadn't quite thought of it that way! As I mentioned, all of those mystical ideas on "things coming back to you" do in a sense relate to common sense, but just as you mentioned, perhaps not in a way we would expect or a way that would cause a surprisingly significant impact. Your answer to #2 was completely new to me, though I had considered infancy in a few ways, never as simple as that before.

  Perhaps then our selfishness roots from survival instincts that are a part of us. You definitely don't want to find a way to make humans not have survival instincts - an altruistic race would doubtless be problematic (however maybe not as problematic as the way humanity sounds.) Though I guess I'm getting off on a wild idea here, since as you can probably guess this would require modifying the human genome to engineer everyone to be a certain way other than how they are now. Yikes. Like that will ever happen...

  I never meant to imply there aren't already a lot of people who do that. I'm just speaking on the ranks of those caught up in mysticism (though I suppose primarily the mainstream ones and the cults with memberships). I see a distinction between feeling in love with a moment and thinking mystical about it though. Though perhaps as this conversation is turning - the mystical directly relates to the emotional. In which sense: 'Mysticizing' (look look I made up a word) the moment may merely be a way to emphasize how truly special it is to you. Since this is a personally generated thing rather than one fed to you by money-grubbing freedom-stealing creeps, I don't see any reason to consider it foolish...but that will come in the next thread.

  As for those questions you mentioned to show you can't help but wonder at life - that's true, but making educated guesses can't hurt. I agree...striving for more is what keeps some of us going.

  To step back for a minute to the other bold text here about survival instincts making us selfish, this is one of the few guesses I have about why we are selfish and why we cannot just all 'change'. For some it may be next to impossible just because of the experiences of their life and the chemical configuration of their brain. If this is not a totalitarian change, what do we do with the people who wouldn't participate in our (well, me, frenchbabyface & maybe Marx's) utopian society? Imprison them, evict them from their homes to live in some isolated place, or kill them? Naturally if one's concern is that of fairness for all, there are only two ways of looking at it: The 'greater' good (or evil), or the view of neutrality.

  The 'greater' good (or evil) idea would consist of doing one of those three awful things to any who did not wish to participate in the utopia. The 'greater' good would be that everyone willing to participate (hopefully the majority but...who knows) would get to exist in a world where no one is on top, where all are equal. No one with more than you to snub you and make you feel bad, no one under you to curse you for being so filthy rich. This is not a good example of the benefit (or even the point) of utopia, but you get what I mean. But the utopia can't work without everyone participating willfully. Democracy then becomes absurd - but as I see it there shouldn't even be a human head of state. People then are not really free except to leave society and be outcast to the fate society decrees for them. This can be considered unjust. The greater 'good' is served however - those who want to live in a world free of many of today's problems get it. Those who don't well...this is where the greater 'evil' part comes in to play.

  The idea of neutrality would mean that since you rob people of their freedom, it is wrong to even attempt such a change. No good or evil should be served - let people to their own devices. In a sense this is no better or worse than being forced to live in a utopia - when you live in a 'free' society you are still restricted by laws and your situation - finances, family, geographical area, etc. You will not be equal to everyone else, at least not in your quality of life - and probably not in your enjoyment of life. It's up to you to adapt or to aspire for more through the routines necessary. But many of certain dominations may find it nigh-impossible to ever reach that level where the quality of their life improves.

  To put it bluntly, everyone would have to willingly adopt frenchbabyface's optimism and energy for this utopian future to even be possible. But if not everyone will stop being selfish - not everyone will look for a common good - then this is likely to be impossible. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I see the world staying the same as it always has been - the strong rule, the weak suffer. Class and denominational 'warfare' (both literally and metaphorically) will persist. My hope is not extinguished however. Here's what it would take:

  - inhumanly servient soldiers using non-lethal debilitating force; this would require robots or genetically modified beings to enact
  - a leader or central mind free of corruption - since a human cannot be trusted for this (and humans die), the natural choice is a leader crafted in a shell of metal and electronics that only fulfills its programming, wanting nothing more because it was built only to do a certain thing.
  - someone with enough power, money and conviction in this system to actually attempt something like this
  - the victory of these soldiers over the governments of the world
  - possibly, the brainwashing of people who persistently resist (or form resistance cells with the misguided belief the old system was better)
  
  Uhm, naturally, this seems a touch too sci-fi to even consider a possibility right now. To change a world, you need otherworldly ideas. (The preceding statement is not meant to be taken out of context to infer that religion is a good idea.) Unfortunately believing in something like this happening is no less misguided than a Witness waiting for Armageddon so the bad old world will go away.

  We must adapt to our environment...
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  160

  Why ? Why? WHY???

  by rune in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this topic has been rolling around in my head for some time.

  i don't expect that i'll write it perfectly as it needs to be articulated in different ways for different people...but i will do my best.

  and worst of all, i am not expecting any kind of response that will satisfy me.

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  rune

  frenchbabyface: You made great points on the problems of mainstream religion (or really, any organized religion/cult) - about how it skews people from 'unconditional love' (not senseless / mindless love), how the followers are being victimized by the religious leaders, and how it causes nothing good (on the whole). Also you touched on the why - with those four points. You spoke about it in a different way than I've thought about these things before...but I'd like to further some things a bit, sort of like a question / something to consider...towards the questions I asked.

  Now if these people are in an organization that causes trouble, they have reasons (reasons like what you said). But in my mind, these points tend to make me think that whole problem here rests on selfishness. These people (especially the leaders) don't want a world where all can exist as equals - such as Marx's humanist conception of communism - true communism. I think this is the same reason true communism under human rule (who says we can't make an unbiased artificial intelligence to oversee people? lol) is impossible - corruption. This a big allegation to make against such a great number of people however, so I will go into detail.

  There culture (most often Dad and mom beliefs)

  There specific need (not really love - see how they can go crazy about how they love in JWLand for instance just because their belief even with their own kids) ... and truly they wouldn't if only they could be objective on the matter ... (very important here)

  The need to feel special on a higher level

  and well life is so short

  1. When we grow up, Mommy & Daddy [hopefully] have little to no say in how we think or choose to run our lives. However, some people value their families greatly, and wouldn't want to push themselves away from them by leaving the religion they were brought in. This extends further than family - a religion opens up a community for you, one that is often kept seperate from the public. To break free of a religion on grounds of 'what you see is right' may pale in comparison to staying in the religion to continue socializing and enjoying time with your friends there. It's hard to leave religion or change your views even if only because you can lose/distance friends/family.

  2. Lack of objectivity - or worse yet, willful ignorance, gullibility or plain old stupidity - holds some to a faith that has given them all the answers they seek. To leave would mean to be cast adrift in a world of unanswered questions and unknowns - this is stress some people can't or don't want to handle. Tied to point #4, this is too needless a concern for them to ever leave. It is easier and much more comfortable to stay put than to think radically different, especially if the one's customs please them greatly. It's a bother, or stressful, to leave a way of life behind to start a new one that operates radically different.

  3. It's true...many people want to feel important, special...I won't go so far as to say all, but I don't know. There could be a great many reasons for this, and whether they are different for everyone or fall under some unified lumped set of categories for all of humanity is uncertain. Those who don't necessarily have an easy break for feeling this way already in life (or desire it to the maximum potential) are told they are in league with the Divine (depending on the faith...but something more or less equivalent to this). It is another way of being told 'you are the best'. There may be restrictions or rules that they will have to follow to maintain this status as one of the faith, but generally that is part of religion's control. You follow the rules to stay in the group and feel special. People are so arrogant and self-righteous, while similtaneously being fools, that they will adhere to a system of rules that brings them no 'real' value (an emotional need - whatever value you place on this - I am going to be starting another thread that relates to this somewhat later) and may in fact detract from their enjoyment of life.

  4. Life is short - that is to say, life is finite. People know that they are not going to be around forever. Aging is only a reminder of this, though earlier for some than others. Life is too short to be flopping around between ideas instead of gaining esteem in one organization. Life is too short to 'waste' it helping others instead of just feeling good in whatever way possible. After all, concerning our survival, we pride ourselves and our kindred first and foremost - why not extend this to all parts of life? You can even offset this by dropping a few coins in a donation box for some vague charity that will help some starving children in some faraway land you'll never have to lay eyes on. Almost no human being spends the majority of its time giving what it has away to others, spending its time to make others' lives better. Such a task, is, for one, difficult to discern, and furthermore it is harder to even know how much impact it will have. But is that because one person can barely make a scratch in the problem, or is it because there are too many unwilling to do the right thing? People are scared and/or so self-absorbed to bother with working to make things equal and good for everyone (especially the ones with more than others).

  1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = CORRUPTION. "I come first, you come second" is the reason that I think true communism (or at least a truly united community) will never happen. It is not that I have no hope for it, I just see the likelihood is that this preference of people to themselves will simply not change (only because it never has before), nor do I see any alternative for changing everyone's mind. Things like religion will most likely always exist as testaments to the problem with most of humanity. But realizing this, would a person who would prefer the world to be a truly good place commit to such a thing? IMO, no, I don't think so. I don't see anything wrong with having spiritual views in this sense (asides from them being unnecessary - ...except for emotional value...see next thread), however they should come from within rather than the teachings of others - that is to say, others who want to control your life and take your money (your livelihood).