Posts by bjc2012

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

bjc2012

Emiliano,

I am not a JW and have not been one since 1991.

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

JR,

You do see the fallacy his argument, don't you? Every reference made to ‘Israel’ in the Bible he assumes refers to ‘natural Israel’ in spite of the fact that he knows that the name Israel, as of the first century, was no longer synonymous with the natural descendants of Abraham through Jacob. It became aligned with anyone, Jew or Gentile, who demonstrated the faith of Abraham. Abraham’s faith was of such proportions that he was called a ‘friend of God.’ Therefore Paul explains in Romans chapter 4 that all who exercise faith like Abraham’s would be considered ‘his seed,’ hence fulfilling the promise that Abraham would be ‘a father of many nations.’

Throughout all of Israel’s history, their receiving the blessing as Abraham’s seed was always dependent on their obedience to Jehovah’s laws. Even from the beginning, almost as soon as they were brought out of Egypt, they showed their propensity towards disobedience. I think you know the story. Moses even said of them, as recorded at Deuteronomy 31:27: “I well know your rebelliousness and your stiff neck. If while I am yet alive with you today, you have proved rebellious in behavior toward Jehovah, then how much more so after my death!” Verse 29 further says: “For I well know that after my death you will without fail act ruinously, and you will certainly turn aside from the way about which I have commanded you; and calamity will be bound to befall you at the close of the days, because you will do what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah so as to offend him by the works of your hands.” How right he was!

Fifteen hundred or more years later, Jesus has to tell them “the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” And this is exactly what happened, the calamity that Moses spoke of. They lost the opportunity that had been originally opened to them alone, that is, to become a “nation of priest, a holy nation.” This particular nation, a new nation, was now comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, mostly Gentiles as so few Jews took advantage of what had been offered to them. The mere fact that Gentiles were allowed to partake of Jehovah’s offer show conclusively that natural Israel had forfeited their opportunity and it would never be offered to them again, as a nation. They have put themselves in the unenviable position of pagan nations being able to point their fingers at them and say “What fools you were to turn down such a golden opportunity. We would never have done that had this offer been made to us!” And Jesus himself vouches for this as he said,
“..…if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Consequenty I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgement Day than for you.” (Matthew 11:21.22) Why? Because they are still continuing in their disobedience as Moses predicted. Paul said of them at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16: “For you became imitators, brothers, of the congregations of God that are in Judea in union with Christ Jesus, because you also began suffering at the hands of your own countrymen the same things as they also are suffering at the hands of Jews, who killed even the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us. Furthermore, they are not pleasing God, but are against the interests of all men, as they try to hinder us from speaking to people of the nations that these might be saved, with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But his wrath has at length come upon them.” They ‘always fill up the measure of their sin’ show that they were still as Moses described them 1500 years earlier, disobedient, sinning to the max!

The scriptures in Ezekiel that he quoted were never fulfilled upon natural Israel and have not been so to this day. The kingdom has been taken away from them and will not be returned to this nation. These scriptures will be fulfilled upon another ‘Israel!”

Jehovah determines who will be the recipient of his mercy and blessings. (Romans chapter 9) He is not hogtied by any natural descent claim or any other such human right. He proved this by his selecting Jacob to carry the birthright rather than Esau, who was the first-born son. Esau had God’s disapproval because ‘he did not appreciate sacred things.’ Jehovah would not allow someone like Esau to be in charge of this ‘sacred’ matter, as he will not allow faithless natural Israel to be in charge of his kingdom. Hebrews 11:6 attests to this. It says: “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Besides this, Jehovah is the one who determines who will be called the ‘seed of Abraham’ as John said at Matthew 3:9: “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” Yes, Jehovah can manufacture a seed and use it to fulfill his promise to Abraham.

What are your thoughts?

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

bjc2012

Emiliano,

1. Since you have Jehovah's e-mail address, why don't you ask him to explain to you why he inspired Paul to write at Galatians 3:29, this. "Moreover, If you belong to christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." This was directed to Gentiles.

2. Yes, Israel screwed up and they lost the opportunity to fulfill Exodus 19:6 to 'become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'

3. Israel is paying only for their continued disobedience.

4. No, death acquitted Israel of their sin against the Law Covenant. They currently do not have a covenant with Jehovah as they rejected the New Covenant. Jehovah therefore has no obligation to do anything for them.

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

bjc2012

Emiliano,

You said and correctly:

"that is God's gift and calling and verse 29 says they are IRREVOCABLE!"

But, Jehovah does not make irrevocable promises to disobedient humans. When he told natural Israel in Exodus 19:6: "And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom and priest and a holy nation," it was conditional. Verse 5 says: "And now IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other people because the whole earth belongs to me." Israel did not prove itself to be obedient, which is why Paul said at Romans 9:27: "Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved." No, Jehovah could not save the entire nation and therefore had the message of salvation given to the gentiles who did respond and so completed the nation of Israel. Due to this situation, Paul could say at Romans 9:6,7: "However, it is not as though the word of God failed. For not all who spring from Israel are really "Israel." Neither because they are abraham's seed are they all children,...."

Why would Jehovah 'dull their sensibilities' or harden their hearts unless they were disobedient? Sure they will be resurrected, but it will not be to any sort of glory but to certain condemnation.

Certainly Jehovah's irrevocable promises will be fulfilled upon 'Israel,' the true seed of Abraham, those who "adhere to the faith of Abraham." (Romans 4:16)

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

bjc2012

Thinker,

Yes, the future has already been determined by Jehovah. Can any human change that future? If not, then human exercise of free will encompasses only his future in relation to what has been predetermined by Jehovah. And that is as the Bible says, 'choose life or choose death.' What other choices are there? These were the only choices that Adam was given. Do you have some other biblical definition of free will?

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

bjc2012

Thinker,

The Bible deals with what Jehovah accepts or does not accept from those who worship him. Now, if you are a worshipper of Him then how you live your daily life is somewhat regulated but not all things. Ones every waking moment is not under scrutiny all day every day. An individual can still make choices about many things in his life. I don't know of any verse in the bible where humans are told that they can do anything that they want without suffering any consequences. If you are willing to accept the consequences, then you can do whatever you feel big enough to do. Exercise your free will. The one outstanding thought in the Bible is that humans will not offer any kind of worship that they please and it be accepted by Jehovah. He and He alone makes the decision of what he will accept and what he will not. This is what the bible is all about. We do not have free will in this matter other than what Moses stated in Deuteronomy 30:19, 20: "I do take the heavens and earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you many keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days...."

5

Is Jesus the "lowliest...."

by SixofNine in

the reasoning book says, " the bible's description of jesus shows that he was indeed "the lowliest one of mankind".

it references phil.2: 7,8 and matt.

11:28-30 to prove it.. i've never thought of jesus as the "lowliest of mankind", and those scriptures dont' indicate to me that i ought to.

bjc2012

Hi SixofNine,

The dream described in Daniel chapter 4 does appear to be about rulership, that is, rulership that is under the control of the Almighty God. It deals with more than the relatively short reign of Nebuchadnezzar and his successors. The question then would be does this dream have anything to do with the kingdom of Israel as the WTS claims.

Jehovah did make a promise to David that one of his seed would sit on the throne ‘to time indefinite’ and that he would have subjects from ‘sea to sea’ and from ‘the river to the ends of the earth.’ (See 2 Samuel 7:10-16; Psalms 72:8-11) This promise has yet to be fulfilled as it concerns an earthly government not a heavenly one. These verses could very well apply to the tearing down of, but leaving the rootstock and banding it, and the subsequent resprouting of the kingdom of Israel that would fulfill these prophesies.

The tree was banded using two different types of metals, iron and copper, the significance of which I believe can be explained by considering the vision in Daniel chapter 2. In this vision, an image is described using four types of metal: gold, silver, copper, and iron. I think we can safely say that the gold represented Babylon’s kings. Babylon was the kingdom Jehovah used to cut down the kingdom of Israel. The silver represents Medo-Persia, the kingdom that was used to free Israel from captivity to Babylon. Although they were allowed the freedom to restore true worship and rebuild the temple, they were not allowed to reestablish a kingdom. They were continually dominated by the silver part of the image. The kingdom of Israel was to be further held down by the copper and iron bands.

The copper is said to represent the Grecian Empire begun by Alexander the Great and the iron, the Roman Empire. Now I question that the iron represents the Roman Empire only. No one can accuse Briton (UK) of being weak as is described by the feet and toes of iron and clay mixed. They ruled an empire such that it was said that ‘the sun never set on the British Empire.’ They were truly iron-like. And the same can be said for America. I therefore conclude that the legs of iron represent the Roman as well as the British/American Empires. If I am correct, then when the kingdom represented by the feet and toes ‘partly of iron and partly of clay’ emerges, then the bands would have been removed from the rootstock. Daniel 2:44 will have its fulfillment. Many scholars believe that this combination of iron and clay represent a federation of nations that join together but do not have the toughness of iron to rule with the strength of the previous kingdoms. In fact, if the ten toes have any meaning, then we might expect there to be a federation of 10 or more nations joining together to form a kingdom, but these nations will not prove to be ‘sticking together as iron is not mixing with molded clay.’ As Daniel describes it, ‘it will be partly strong and partly fragile.’ I say 10 or more because Daniel 7:8 shows a “small horn coming in among them and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it.”

In harmony with your suggestion that ‘the lowliest one’ does not refer to Jesus, I checked Strong’s Concordance and found that the word translated ‘lowliest’ means ‘basest.’ And I certainly agree that you could never apply the word ‘base’ to a perfect man as Jesus had been. You’d have to look elsewhere for an application other than the application to Nebuchadnezzar himself.

bjc

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

bjc2012

Larc,

I believe that you are describing 'philia,' brotherly affection, and not 'agape.'

bjc

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

bjc2012

Xandit,

Maybe they will look at the word that is translated as love in this verse and discover that it is 'agape' and since they are certain that christendom does not show this kind of love, they may discover that it does apply to them. Now what?