rick_here

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Posts by rick_here

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  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Leolaia (again),
  
  

  There is also an interesting Petrine tradition about the church itself as being a "different race," of Christianity as the "third way" (neither Jew nor Gentile)....
  The "different race" theme is certainly given a rather different application in the Petrine pseudepigrapha, but it still looks like a thread that runs between distinct groups of Christian literatures....btw, the Petrine idea of Christians as a "third race" is not ideologically one of including Gentiles into the Jewish fold but rather creating a new race that was neither Jewish nor Gentile.

  
  
  A different (or another) race I clearly see in both biblical and extra-biblical writings. But, forgive me if I didn't check all your references (and I didn't/ have time), but I've never read in any of these texts about a "third race."
  
  The literature speaks about "births" (or being born into a race) and I've identified "Two Races" that seem to be consistent throughout all of the literature (biblical and non-biblical). This is a theme that seems to be somewhat "unknown" (for lack of vocabulary). But it's apparent to me.
  
  I refer you back to my post where quoted from 1 Enoch and the Gospel of John:
  
  

  (and echoing back to an earlier text)
  1 Enoch 39
  1. And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the
  2. high heaven, and their seed will become one with the children of men.
  
  Odes of Solomon 31
  4. Then He lifted his voice towards the Most High, and offered to Him those that had become sons through Him.
  
  John 1 (NKJV)
  10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
  11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
  12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
  13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  
  
  This might be a tad off-topic for the thread but, surely; I can't be the only person (around) who "sees this" can I?
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  a geographical correction (on my part); I posted:
  
  

  "If such may have been the case, Judas Iscariot's ancestry was from a region just south of the Galillee." [Re: if Judas Iscariot's "lineage" may have been from the tribe of Issachar].

  
  
  My mistake here is that the ancient border of the land designated to the tribe of Issachar was actually proximal to the southern border of the Galilee in NT times. In other words, the old land of Issachar is, essentially, "Galilee's southern border" in the 1st century.
  
  
  Leolaia,
  
  Judas Iscariot's name being a kind of combination-name of "Judah Issachar" is a possibility that I won't dismiss. Using footnotes (in my NIV Study Bible), "the name 'Judah' sounds like the Hebrew word for praise" (and) "the Hebrew word 'Issachar' sounds like the Hebrew word for a reward."
  
  This isn't much of an 'intellectual reply' on if Judas' name really means "Judah Issachar" (or not). Nor does it answer if Judas was from Galilee or if he was was a Judean.
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Re: Judas "Iscariot"
  
  I looked into other etiological possibilities and found 2 cities named "Kerioth" (or Kirioth) in Judea. One was located about 10 miles south of Hebron toward the southern border of Judea and the other was practically straight across the Dead Sea; also close to the southern border of Judea (near Moab).
  
  Ish Kerioth (as pronounced in Hebrew) means "a man of Kerioth"; Iscariot being the (Hebrew to Greek to English) transliterations.
  
  Some have identified the 12-disciples' "Simon the Zealot" as actually being Judas Iscariot's father... going further out on a limb (?).
  
  Others add that Judas Iscariot (if he was, indeed, from Judea) was added among the 12, at least in part, as someone who knew the (southern Judean) "dialect" and served as a kind of "translator" between the Galileans (Jesus & the other 11). This could have some possibilities in our intrigues.
  
  Now, if I could (somehow) only get all that interested in Star Wars....
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Leolaia,
  
  (backing up a bit, in reply)

  One mystery in interpreting the fragment is this: "Although you are wicked in this place, you are the disciple of Jesus" (Gospel of Judas 6:13-14). What did Judas do that was wicked? Was he judged as wicked because he was a follower of Jesus (and they viewed Jesus as wicked), or did he do something else that was "wicked"?

  
  
  Judas Iscariot's "surname" gives us clues here. Some scholars see a possiblity for Judas as having been from the tribe of Issachar (by lineage). If such may have been the case, Judas Iscariot's ancestry was from a region just south of the Galillee. However, by NT times we don't see a precedence of "surnames" based on tribal ancestry. (I know of none).
  
  It seems more likely that Judas' "surname" stems from his political allegiances. Sicarri (Latin, transliterated into the Greek, sikairion) has etiology back to the Latin "sicae" -- meaning "a dagger." In fact, our English word "sickle" has the same root.
  
  Josephus speaks of the Sicarri as a militant sub-sect who advocated not only the overthrowing of Rome, but of the apostate Temple authorities (due to their "submission to" or cooperation with to Rome). The Sicarri were the 1st century (Jewish) equivalent of the "Al Queda" that we see today in Islam. In other words, they were terrorists.
  
  Judas would have been "wicked in this place" (in the Temple, or its precincts) in that he was not only a militant enemy of Rome; but of the Temple authorities themselves, who were "PC with them." He was also betraying his master (rabbi/teacher) which called into question his moral fortitude. Judas' agenda
  was one of compromize; buddy-ing up with the enemy (= no respect, no trust).
  
  However with that being said, this has no other relevance for what GJudas may mean, in terms of what its authors intended.
  
  \o/
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Leolaia,
  

  There is also an interesting Petrine tradition about the church itself as being a "different race," of Christianity as the "third way" (neither Jew nor Gentile)...

  
  This "different race" theme was what attracted me to this thread (I went, wow)! However, what I have in mind is not specifically related to the 'inclusion of Gentiles' into the older Jewish fold (or covenant) in terms of what the NT has to say about these things, as in Romans and Galatians.
  
  (Using our sytem of 'quoting' from the extant text of GJudas)
  
  

  GJudas 3:
  13. ...For I
  14. was called Allogenes
  15. because I am from
  16. a different race....

  
  
  compare & contrast
  
  Odes of Solomon 28
  17. And I did not perish, because I was not their brother, nor was my birth like theirs.
  
  Odes of Solomon 41
  8. All those who see me will be amazed, because I am from another race.
  
  (and echoing back to an earlier text)
  1 Enoch 39
  1. And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the
  2. high heaven, and their seed will become one with the children of men.
  
  Odes of Solomon 31
  4. Then He lifted his voice towards the Most High, and offered to Him those that had become sons through Him.
  
  John 1 (NKJV)
  10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
  11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
  12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
  13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  
  This "from a different race" theme is continuing to appear to me as highly significant from even within the canonical Gospels (themselves) and presents a challenge to orthodox Christianity --- while using "their" texts. I'd like some feedback on this if "anyone" has time.
  
  rick
  \o/
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Narkissos adds:
  
  

  ....everything is tentative at this stage.

  
  How true.
  
  One simple solution to any speculations on our part would be to wait till the (extant) Gospel of Judas gets translated. And to proceed from there. But the tentative text is so significant and my curiotity is aroused. Iow, I can't wait!
  
  I'm at a stage in my biblical and extra-biblical studies to where I can't let any "nuggets" (of information) simply pass me by. Another way of saying this is that the Gospel of Judas (in what we have, above) -- coupled with my reading Allogenes (in Nag Hammadi) -- has come to me as a kind of really good "case-scenario" to where I can put these things in some kind of general order. In other words, I'm just now getting a very basic understanding of what 'Gnostic Texts' mean (or meant) in their own historical context.
  
  So my posting here (on this thread) is something of an exegetical experiment. A "testing of my (hermeneutical) methodology"...if you will. So please bear with me....
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Notice that Odes of Solomon 41:8-10 appear as a (first person, singular) "quotation" of someone who the surrounding text identifies as the Savior, the Man who humbled himself [kenosis], the Messiah, and the Son of the Most High.
  
  compare and contrast
  
  Odes of Solomon 28:
  
  13. Because I continually did good to every man I was hated.
  14. And they surrounded me like mad dogs, those who in stupidity attack their masters.
  15. Because their thought is depraved, and their mind is perverted.
  16. But I was carrying water in my right hand, and their bitterness I endured by my sweetness.
  17. And I did not perish, because I was not their brother, nor was my birth like theirs.
  18. And they sought my death but did not find it possible, because I was older than their memory; and in vain did they cast lots against me.
  19. And those who were after me sought in vain to destroy the memorial of Him who was before them.
  20. Because the thought of the Most High cannot be prepossessed; and His heart is superior to all wisdom.
  Hallelujah.
  
  Here, I'd like to point back to 1 Enoch and bring up the theme of humanic "ascensions into heavenly realms," (or into The Divine Courtroom or Heavenly Council).
  
  "Allogenes" in the NHL corpus comes to us as an indiviual, we might say. However, his character (or persona) is thematically compatible with persons who are divinely-driven and appear to us as as "quasi-divine persons" if you will. (See, the Son of Man in 1 Enoch).
  
  It appears to me, by way of speculation (and guess-work), that the "Allogenes" in the Gospel of Judas is none other than the person of Jesus echoing back to when he was making his descent "toward the earth."
  
  Another way of stating this would be that the "Allogenes" character is Jesus in the Gospel of Judas. What GJudas may say to us is a recapitulation of the current existential dilemma that Jesus faced, as the culminating result of his "descension [kenosis]" and just before his (existential) death. In short, I think the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane represent a kind of "earthly equivalent" of what was really happening -- in the higher spiritual realms....where the "real ontology exists", imo.
  
  Did I just call myself a gnostic?
  (LoL)
  
  This may not make much sense, I know....
  Biblical and non-canonical (or extra-biblical) literature are quite mystical and remotely removed from our present world and worldview. We re limited in our understanding.
  
  I'll leave it here, for now.
  rick
  
  \o/
• 
  33

  New discovery of a lost gospel

  by Leolaia in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

  adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

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  rick_here

  Leolaia,
  
  As you say, time will tell what the Gospel of Judas may have to say.
  
  I just read Allogenes (from the Nag Hammadi Library) for the first time yesterday after having gone through the (above, available & tentative) translations of sections from the Gospel of Judas, while trying to make some sense of it as it stands (in the available evidence). Speculation is obvious at this point, which goes without saying.
  
  Before going further, both the name of Allogenes (Gk, "of another race" [or] "a stranger") and the actual saying by the Allogenes character here, "I am from a different race" are striking. Leaving this here for now, I was immediateluy reminded of something I had seen in the Odes of Solomon:
  
  Ode 41 (James Charlesworth translation)
  
  1. Let all the Lord's babes praise Him, and let us receive the truth of His faith.
  2. And His children shall be acknowledged by Him, therefore let us sing by His love.
  3. We live in the Lord by His grace, and life we receive by His Messiah.
  4. For a great day has shined upon us, and wonderful is He who has given to us of His glory.
  5. Let us, therefore, all of us agree in the name of the Lord, and let us honor Him in His goodness.
  6. And let our faces shine in His light, and let our hearts meditate in His love, by night and by day.
  7. Let us exult with the exultation of the Lord.
  8. All those who see me will be amazed, because I am from another race.
  9. For the Father of Truth remembered me; he who possessed me from the beginning.
  10. For His riches begat me, and the thought of His heart.
  11. And His Word is with us in all our way, the Savior who gives life and does not reject ourselves.
  12. The Man who humbled Himself, but was exalted because of His own righteousness.
  13. The Son of the Most High appeared in the perfection of His Father.
  14. And light dawned from the Word that was before time in Him.
  15. The Messiah in truth is one. And He was known before the foundations of the world, that He might give life to persons for ever by the truth of His name.
  16. A new chant is for the Lord from them that love Him.
  Hallelujah.
  
  [cont'd]
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  66

  recommend some new music

  by tijkmo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  have you found some new band or artist that you would reccomend we listen to...for this to work we would need to know what style of music you normally listen to and then we can know if its what we would enjoy...eg.

  i like pink floyd...genesis...yes...etc.....................and have just found mercury rev......brill

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  rick_here

  Here's a decent (online) station:
  
  
  Delicious Agony Prog-Rock Radio
  
  And...I just ordered this:
  
  
  
  
  Saw the Aquarium Rescue Unit a few years back in Memphis (see, WOW). I think they may have broken-up (?) or aren't touring right now. I also have their guitarist's (Jimmy Herring) solo cd in the mail: "Endangered Species".
  
  
  
  "Glass Harp" the prog-rock band):
  
  
  Phil Keaggy's Homepage
  
  (This guy's been world-acclaimed among "the pros" (other guitarists) for years & years). Saw him three times @ Don't Miss This Dude In Concert!!! even if you ain't religious....plz!
  
  rick
  
  
  \o/
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  17

  Matthew 1:18-25..."the virgin birth"...(seeking exegetical help)

  by rick_here in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i've been @ jwdf before, having been "referred" by an ex-jw i met at beliefnet.com.

  this person said i'd find some folks here who are interested in the stuff i am.

  namely, the "historical-critical studies of the bible" (not to be confused with theological liberalism, per se, which is a specific "movement" within the history of christianity).

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  rick_here

  First (and foremost); thanks to everyone for your replies!
  
  To Leolaia,
  for the "scan" of a page from Davies' & Allison's: A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to Saint Matthew. (Much needed help, for further studies).
  
  Euripides,
  "What traditional interpretation are you now 'agnostic' about?"
  Basically, and as it may have "shown", I've been essentially confused about this passage (and specifically regarding the Greek-phrase, above) as it has been traditionally interpreted. Without going into what I've found on 1st century (Jewish) marriage customs, for now anyway; there is some evidence that the passage can be interpreted "non-traditionally" (and/or to mean something different). This other interpretation is contingent on the relationship -- and relevance -- of the Essenes in the NT Era. I believe they were much more "influential" than is normally acknowledged and/or understood. I also see this is a kind of "sub-topic" for this thread that would need to be developed.
  
  Narkissos,
  "Just to add that there is a textual problem in v. 16 bearing on the virgin birth issue in the genealogy, but I guess it is not what Rick had in mind here... (According to the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, v. 16 reads: "Joseph, to whom was betrothed Mary the virgin, begot Jesus who is called the Christ.")"
  Precisely.
  This, combined with early reports of the Gospel of Matthew being "originally written in Hebrew" (or Aramaic/Syriac?) and the possibility of the Sinaitic Syriac being more "accurate" to the original composition (?).
  
  
  Following up on 1st century (Jewish) marriage customs; a footnote in Craig S. Keen's A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Eerdmans, 1999, p. 92) has,
  
  "A recently discovered [1st century Judean] marriage contract indicating prior cohabitation [between the 'betrothed']...also assumed a greater likelihood that the woman would get pregnant before the wedding," (Keen citing Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine by Tal Ilan, Hendrickson, p. 100).
  
  I just got Tal Ilan's book from Amazon.com today and haven't had time to look at it. (I ordered the book because I couldn't find any significant related information on the web). In any event, certain passages from Josephus about "marrying Essenes" fits into the equation (of my train of thought).
  
  I'll be back...soon. Hopefully with some more info that we can sink our teeth into, as it were.
  
  rick
  
  \o/