Posts by rick

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Hello Narkissos! (and I have to go (for now) after this post),

1 Enoch 39:1f most probably refers (again) to the union of the heavenly Watchers with women... so "?"

Good question; I've asked that and much more about the text in question. This led me to an 'in-depth study' (to the best of my ability) of Genesis 6:4 and of the Nephilim.

To abbreviate my findings; I see 1 Enoch and Ge. 6 (Nephilim) as a kind of apocalyptic description of (what we normally refer to as) "The Fall of Man." However, this wouldn't be the "original Fall" (of Adam & Eve).

It's the later Ante-Deluvian (before the flood) Fall, imo, described in apocalyptic phraseology or terms. Put another way, the "race" of the fallen ones (lit., nephilim) began at this time.

Though there were a certian people specifically identified as "Nephilim" I do not see them as some kind of mysterious "giants" (which is due to an erroneous translation in the LXX). Nor do I see them as a strange "Bible Science-Fiction-Giants" (or the as the object of jokes).

Essentially, being "born of (or by) a spirit" or having a spiritual-birth and, therefore, being "in" a spiritual-family is what I'm driving at. I believe the Bible (and extra-canonical literature as well) points to "people being in One of the Two Families" by virue of their spiritual birthright.

1 Enoch 15 (Charles translation)
1. And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
2. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:
3. Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?
4. And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.
5. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. 6. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.

7. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.
9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.

10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.
11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from THEM.

divisions, emphases, & caps, mine

\o/

I have to go for now....

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Midget-Sasquatch,

Most Gnostics, however, took another line, claiming that Christ was a divine emissary from above, totally spirit, and that he entered the man Jesus temporarily in order to convey the knowledge that can liberate sparks from their material imprisonment. For these Gnostics, Jesus himself was in fact a human, even though some thought that he was not made like the rest if us, so that he could receive the divine emissary; some, for example, thought that he had a "soul-body: rather than a "flesh-body".

and going back to Narkissos,

[in Nag Hammadi]...Allogenes (in contrast to Autogenes) does not seem to be the heavenly Revealer, rather a disciple who gradually came to gnôsis through a series of trials and then teaches another.

In the extant GJudas it is difficult to tell whether Allogenes or someone else is (temporarily?) defeated and unable to enslave (the archontes?). But this could suit a disciple character too.

Leaving aside specific "gnostic doctrines" about Christ; let's consider Christology in general. There is support for the "humanity" of Jesus (in both the canonical and (some) gnostic writings). What the 'orthodox' (NT) texts don't really ever elaborate on -- or explore -- is Jesus (own) self-knowledge of who he was.

It's somewhat obliquely hinted at in the canon, but always after the fact. "Don't you know I must be about my Father's business?" (the earliest e.g.). At this point Jesus had come to some definate awareness of who he "was" to his personal identity. "He [Jesus] learned obedience through what he suffered", (in Hebrews somewhere, paraphrased). This text points to Jesus' adult life and undoubtedly, and invetivably, to his Passion.

We Christians, and JW's, and ex-JW's, aren't all that accustomed to seeing Jesus as a "disciple of God." We assume that there must have been something different inside Jesus that made him radically different than we are, humanly speaking. And while this is certainly so (!); each of us has to go thru our own "Allogenes" stage... the path of self-knowldege.

In this sense of being a "student under God's instruction" (a human being, disciple); I find no apparent conflict in seeing Jesus as "an Allogenes figure." Even the Son of God had to find out who he was....

\o/

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Leolaia (again),

There is also an interesting Petrine tradition about the church itself as being a "different race," of Christianity as the "third way" (neither Jew nor Gentile)....
The "different race" theme is certainly given a rather different application in the Petrine pseudepigrapha, but it still looks like a thread that runs between distinct groups of Christian literatures....btw, the Petrine idea of Christians as a "third race" is not ideologically one of including Gentiles into the Jewish fold but rather creating a new race that was neither Jewish nor Gentile.

A different (or another) race I clearly see in both biblical and extra-biblical writings. But, forgive me if I didn't check all your references (and I didn't/ have time), but I've never read in any of these texts about a "third race."

The literature speaks about "births" (or being born into a race) and I've identified "Two Races" that seem to be consistent throughout all of the literature (biblical and non-biblical). This is a theme that seems to be somewhat "unknown" (for lack of vocabulary). But it's apparent to me.

I refer you back to my post where quoted from 1 Enoch and the Gospel of John:

(and echoing back to an earlier text)
1 Enoch 39
1. And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the
2. high heaven, and their seed will become one with the children of men.

Odes of Solomon 31
4. Then He lifted his voice towards the Most High, and offered to Him those that had become sons through Him.

John 1 (NKJV)
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This might be a tad off-topic for the thread but, surely; I can't be the only person (around) who "sees this" can I?

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

a geographical correction (on my part); I posted:

"If such may have been the case, Judas Iscariot's ancestry was from a region just south of the Galillee." [Re: if Judas Iscariot's "lineage" may have been from the tribe of Issachar].

My mistake here is that the ancient border of the land designated to the tribe of Issachar was actually proximal to the southern border of the Galilee in NT times. In other words, the old land of Issachar is, essentially, "Galilee's southern border" in the 1st century.

Leolaia,

Judas Iscariot's name being a kind of combination-name of "Judah Issachar" is a possibility that I won't dismiss. Using footnotes (in my NIV Study Bible), "the name 'Judah' sounds like the Hebrew word for praise" (and) "the Hebrew word 'Issachar' sounds like the Hebrew word for a reward."

This isn't much of an 'intellectual reply' on if Judas' name really means "Judah Issachar" (or not). Nor does it answer if Judas was from Galilee or if he was was a Judean.

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Re: Judas "Iscariot"

I looked into other etiological possibilities and found 2 cities named "Kerioth" (or Kirioth) in Judea. One was located about 10 miles south of Hebron toward the southern border of Judea and the other was practically straight across the Dead Sea; also close to the southern border of Judea (near Moab).

Ish Kerioth (as pronounced in Hebrew) means "a man of Kerioth"; Iscariot being the (Hebrew to Greek to English) transliterations.

Some have identified the 12-disciples' "Simon the Zealot" as actually being Judas Iscariot's father... going further out on a limb (?).

Others add that Judas Iscariot (if he was, indeed, from Judea) was added among the 12, at least in part, as someone who knew the (southern Judean) "dialect" and served as a kind of "translator" between the Galileans (Jesus & the other 11). This could have some possibilities in our intrigues.

Now, if I could (somehow) only get all that interested in Star Wars....

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Leolaia,

(backing up a bit, in reply)

One mystery in interpreting the fragment is this: "Although you are wicked in this place, you are the disciple of Jesus" (Gospel of Judas 6:13-14). What did Judas do that was wicked? Was he judged as wicked because he was a follower of Jesus (and they viewed Jesus as wicked), or did he do something else that was "wicked"?

Judas Iscariot's "surname" gives us clues here. Some scholars see a possiblity for Judas as having been from the tribe of Issachar (by lineage). If such may have been the case, Judas Iscariot's ancestry was from a region just south of the Galillee. However, by NT times we don't see a precedence of "surnames" based on tribal ancestry. (I know of none).

It seems more likely that Judas' "surname" stems from his political allegiances. Sicarri (Latin, transliterated into the Greek, sikairion) has etiology back to the Latin "sicae" -- meaning "a dagger." In fact, our English word "sickle" has the same root.

Josephus speaks of the Sicarri as a militant sub-sect who advocated not only the overthrowing of Rome, but of the apostate Temple authorities (due to their "submission to" or cooperation with to Rome). The Sicarri were the 1st century (Jewish) equivalent of the "Al Queda" that we see today in Islam. In other words, they were terrorists.

Judas would have been "wicked in this place" (in the Temple, or its precincts) in that he was not only a militant enemy of Rome; but of the Temple authorities themselves, who were "PC with them." He was also betraying his master (rabbi/teacher) which called into question his moral fortitude. Judas' agenda
was one of compromize; buddy-ing up with the enemy (= no respect, no trust).

However with that being said, this has no other relevance for what GJudas may mean, in terms of what its authors intended.

\o/

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Leolaia,

There is also an interesting Petrine tradition about the church itself as being a "different race," of Christianity as the "third way" (neither Jew nor Gentile)...

This "different race" theme was what attracted me to this thread (I went, wow)! However, what I have in mind is not specifically related to the 'inclusion of Gentiles' into the older Jewish fold (or covenant) in terms of what the NT has to say about these things, as in Romans and Galatians.

(Using our sytem of 'quoting' from the extant text of GJudas)

GJudas 3:
13. ...For I
14. was called Allogenes
15. because I am from
16. a different race....

compare & contrast

Odes of Solomon 28
17. And I did not perish, because I was not their brother, nor was my birth like theirs.

Odes of Solomon 41
8. All those who see me will be amazed, because I am from another race.

(and echoing back to an earlier text)
1 Enoch 39
1. And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the
2. high heaven, and their seed will become one with the children of men.

Odes of Solomon 31
4. Then He lifted his voice towards the Most High, and offered to Him those that had become sons through Him.

John 1 (NKJV)
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This "from a different race" theme is continuing to appear to me as highly significant from even within the canonical Gospels (themselves) and presents a challenge to orthodox Christianity --- while using "their" texts. I'd like some feedback on this if "anyone" has time.

rick
\o/

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Narkissos adds:

....everything is tentative at this stage.

How true.

One simple solution to any speculations on our part would be to wait till the (extant) Gospel of Judas gets translated. And to proceed from there. But the tentative text is so significant and my curiotity is aroused. Iow, I can't wait!

I'm at a stage in my biblical and extra-biblical studies to where I can't let any "nuggets" (of information) simply pass me by. Another way of saying this is that the Gospel of Judas (in what we have, above) -- coupled with my reading Allogenes (in Nag Hammadi) -- has come to me as a kind of really good "case-scenario" to where I can put these things in some kind of general order. In other words, I'm just now getting a very basic understanding of what 'Gnostic Texts' mean (or meant) in their own historical context.

So my posting here (on this thread) is something of an exegetical experiment. A "testing of my (hermeneutical) methodology"...if you will. So please bear with me....

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Notice that Odes of Solomon 41:8-10 appear as a (first person, singular) "quotation" of someone who the surrounding text identifies as the Savior, the Man who humbled himself [kenosis], the Messiah, and the Son of the Most High.

compare and contrast

Odes of Solomon 28:

13. Because I continually did good to every man I was hated.
14. And they surrounded me like mad dogs, those who in stupidity attack their masters.
15. Because their thought is depraved, and their mind is perverted.
16. But I was carrying water in my right hand, and their bitterness I endured by my sweetness.
17. And I did not perish, because I was not their brother, nor was my birth like theirs.
18. And they sought my death but did not find it possible, because I was older than their memory; and in vain did they cast lots against me.
19. And those who were after me sought in vain to destroy the memorial of Him who was before them.
20. Because the thought of the Most High cannot be prepossessed; and His heart is superior to all wisdom.
Hallelujah.

Here, I'd like to point back to 1 Enoch and bring up the theme of humanic "ascensions into heavenly realms," (or into The Divine Courtroom or Heavenly Council).

"Allogenes" in the NHL corpus comes to us as an indiviual, we might say. However, his character (or persona) is thematically compatible with persons who are divinely-driven and appear to us as as "quasi-divine persons" if you will. (See, the Son of Man in 1 Enoch).

It appears to me, by way of speculation (and guess-work), that the "Allogenes" in the Gospel of Judas is none other than the person of Jesus echoing back to when he was making his descent "toward the earth."

Another way of stating this would be that the "Allogenes" character is Jesus in the Gospel of Judas. What GJudas may say to us is a recapitulation of the current existential dilemma that Jesus faced, as the culminating result of his "descension [kenosis]" and just before his (existential) death. In short, I think the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane represent a kind of "earthly equivalent" of what was really happening -- in the higher spiritual realms....where the "real ontology exists", imo.

Did I just call myself a gnostic?
(LoL)

This may not make much sense, I know....
Biblical and non-canonical (or extra-biblical) literature are quite mystical and remotely removed from our present world and worldview. We re limited in our understanding.

I'll leave it here, for now.
rick

\o/

33

New discovery of a lost gospel

by Leolaia in

the lost gospel of judas, thought to be the same gospel mentioned by irenaeus (cf.

adversus haereses 1.31.1), is currently being prepared for publication.

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2004/07/exciting-news-about-coptic-gospel-of.html.

rick_here

Leolaia,

As you say, time will tell what the Gospel of Judas may have to say.

I just read Allogenes (from the Nag Hammadi Library) for the first time yesterday after having gone through the (above, available & tentative) translations of sections from the Gospel of Judas, while trying to make some sense of it as it stands (in the available evidence). Speculation is obvious at this point, which goes without saying.

Before going further, both the name of Allogenes (Gk, "of another race" [or] "a stranger") and the actual saying by the Allogenes character here, "I am from a different race" are striking. Leaving this here for now, I was immediateluy reminded of something I had seen in the Odes of Solomon:

Ode 41 (James Charlesworth translation)

1. Let all the Lord's babes praise Him, and let us receive the truth of His faith.
2. And His children shall be acknowledged by Him, therefore let us sing by His love.
3. We live in the Lord by His grace, and life we receive by His Messiah.
4. For a great day has shined upon us, and wonderful is He who has given to us of His glory.
5. Let us, therefore, all of us agree in the name of the Lord, and let us honor Him in His goodness.
6. And let our faces shine in His light, and let our hearts meditate in His love, by night and by day.
7. Let us exult with the exultation of the Lord.
8. All those who see me will be amazed, because I am from another race.
9. For the Father of Truth remembered me; he who possessed me from the beginning.
10. For His riches begat me, and the thought of His heart.
11. And His Word is with us in all our way, the Savior who gives life and does not reject ourselves.
12. The Man who humbled Himself, but was exalted because of His own righteousness.
13. The Son of the Most High appeared in the perfection of His Father.
14. And light dawned from the Word that was before time in Him.
15. The Messiah in truth is one. And He was known before the foundations of the world, that He might give life to persons for ever by the truth of His name.
16. A new chant is for the Lord from them that love Him.
Hallelujah.

[cont'd]

rick_here

Posts by rick_here