there may be isolated attempts—ancient and modern—to interpret John 1:1 as implying that the Word had a beginning as the "first creation,"
Yeah, that’s what I’m looking for. Do you know where to find them?
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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slimboyfat
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2908
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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slimboyfat
It might be clear to you what the Guardian gets wrong but it’s not clear to me that we are thinking primarily about the same things. They get some gender stuff wrong and I would be inclined to agree on that to some extent. But to me the worst thing about the Guardian has been its complicity in bringing down Jeremy Corbyn with false anti semitism allegations and thereby denying us any possibility of a genuine attempt at social democracy and ethical foreign policy in the UK. I also think they’ve been too soft in calling out the ongoing genocide. Those are the biggest problems with the Guardian as far as I’m concerned and I suspect they might not be your list. I am already aware of good critiques from a left perspective and it might be obvious to you where to find critiques from another angle but it’s not obvious to me.
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2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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slimboyfat
Why should anyone believe their membership numbers?
Because dozens of censuses across the globe have shown that their membership figures consistently understate the size of their community as demonstrated in the article cited above?
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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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slimboyfat
aqwsed I know that you don’t think Jesus is God’s first creation. My question was whether anyone knows which ancient or modern scholars have taken “beginning” as a description of the origin of the Word in John 1.1 in a way that indicates Jesus is God’s first creation. I am sure I read it somewhere but I can’t remember where.
On the point that “heaven and earth” is a miasm indicating totality, indeed, and that totality, in context is the whole of physical creation. Genesis 1 is an account of the physical creation, it doesn’t discuss or deal with the creation of the heavenly realm, angels, cherubs, seraphs, and the firstborn of all creation.
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2908
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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slimboyfat
What are the questionable Grauniad articles? Have you got a link?
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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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slimboyfat
The regular interpretation of John 1.1 is where it takes “In the beginning was the Word”, along the lines: “the Word already existed at the time of the creation of the heavens and the earth”, and this is how JWs currently read the verse.
But I have read there is an alternative way of understanding the phrase so that it is identifying the Word as the beginning. A bit like saying “in the beginning there was light”, or “in the beginning light appeared”, to indicate that the Word emerged at the beginning. If I recall correctly, this is how some ancient interpreters read the verse, and JWs have at times in the past read it that way too, in which case John 1.1 would be further testimony to Jesus as God’s first creation.
But I can’t remember where I read it. Has anyone else come across this argument? -
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2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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slimboyfat
In what sense is it a 1/4? Because when asked in censuses around twice as many people claim to be JWs than in the publisher count. Are you saying you know better than people themselves whether they are JWs when asked? JWs have one of the strictest methods of counting members of any religious group so even if they “overcount” by their own definition it is still a significant undercount by any comparison with the membership of other groups. And the difference is dramatic.
For example in 2010 JWs claimed 706,699 publishers in Brazil but in the census 1,393,208 identified themselves as JWs. That’s 1.97 times as many describes themselves as JWs than are counted as publishers.
By contrast in that same year Mormons claimed 1,138,740 members in Brazil but in the census only 226,509 described themselves as Mormons. That’s only 0.20 times the number of official Mormon members actually identified in the census.
These results are replicated over lots of countries over many years.
See more details in the article here:
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51
2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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slimboyfat
IDK if I believe that number of congregations is that indicative of anything.
In my experience, all churches in decline, sooner or later, start closing down congregations. I’ve seen it with the Mormons, Church of Scotland, Unitarians, Swedenborgians, Christadelphains, Methodists, Episcopalians, Christian Scientists, Brethren, Baptists, and others. If JWs do experience decline then it will show up in the number of congregations over the medium to long term. In the past few years the number of congregations have declined in line with a stated policy of consolidating resources. If the number of congregations continues to decline then I would say it indicates real decline regardless of what the others figures such as publishers or baptisms are doing. On the other hand, if the number of congregations goes up then it probably confirms growth in general.
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51
2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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slimboyfat
As Joe points out, if JWs measured their membership as Mormons do then they have far more than 9 million members, probably nearer 20 million.
They are doing better than practically all other Christian groups in western countries because most churches are in steep decline. In Scotland hundreds of churches are closing every year, numbers are dwindling, and the average age of attenders is now over 60.
The congregation number has flatlined for about a decade and is down from its all time peak. I wonder if it will start increasing slowly again.
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2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers
by Sanchy inwatchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.
average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.
baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.
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slimboyfat
I’ve said it before: my opinion is that the number of congregations is the most significant indicator of growth or decline for a number of reasons, including the fact that it’s a publicly verifiable figure and it’s less amenable to short term redefinition to boost the figures. But it’s one figure they don’t give in the highlights. If the number of congregations has decreased despite all the other numbers going up then I think it raises legitimate questions about whether the growth is real.