Posts by slimboyfat

70

2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses

by slimboyfat in

i don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.

back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.

those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.

slimboyfat

Does no one think my post interesting enough to reply?

95

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE TERRI SCHIAVO CASE?

by Mary in

jw
friends

there is apparently no chance at all of her ever recovering from her present state, but do you think she should live or die?

for myself, i think she's better off dead than living---no, existing---in her present state.

i for one, have instructed my family to let me die if something like this ever happened to me.

slimboyfat

What do I think about the case?

1. I think that Fox News and the Republicans are having a field day at this woman's expense.

2. While I find it touching that Bush shows such respect for one human life that he would cut short his holiday, I am left wondering where such values were when he sent his troops into Fallujah and showed a shocking disregard for human life.

I cannot read the heart of the husband, but his motives do seem suspect. To be on the safe side, if the decision was just up to me and politics could be removed from the case, then I would definitely choose to let this woman live.

For once I agree with Bill Kristol and Fred Barnes against Mort Kondrake

70

2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses

by slimboyfat in

i don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.

back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.

those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.

slimboyfat

I have a suggestion about what might happen to Witnesses in the future. I don't know what I am talking about... read this post at your peril.

Back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among Jehovah's Witnesses. Those who have read Raymond Franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about Dan Sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'. This apparently mirrored the mood of reform within the Catholic Church at the time. But what happened to the mood of reform?

1. Growth slowed substantially in the 1960s and the board of directors panicked.

2. Fred Franz was allowed to write his prediction about 1975 in the "Life Everlasting" book.

3. There were disputes among the governing body about how far they should push the 1975 thing.

4. Fred Franz managed to publish more definite statements about 1975 than the other members would have liked.

5. Figures increased greatly leading up to 1975 and there was great expectation.

6. 1975 came and went and the governing body had to deal with the fallout for the coming 5 years until things started to pick up again.

Why did things start to pick up again in the 1980s? Why, for instance, were there actually more pioneers (% wise) in the late 1980s than leading up to 1975? Why were publishers doing more hours (per publisher) in the late 1980s/early 1990s than in 1975?

Lots of reasons, but I think that the main one is the 'generation' prophecy. For one thing, among Witnesses, the generation idea had a lot more credibility than the 1975 chronology. Was it not founded on the 'immovable' 1914 date? Had not the society stated it in certain terms (unlike the 1975 date on which they were wishy washy)? Had not God's organisation been teaching about the 'generation' for decades?

This is why many Witnesses went into the 1980s and early 1990s with great confidence. They knew that they had made a mistake about 1975, but at the same time they knew that the generation was fast running out in any case and that the end must come within a couple of decades at the most. The Bible says 'their days are seventy or eighty', so Witnesses figured that the end must come around 1994 at the latest. This explains how Witnesses, even in western countries, were able to demonstrate significant increases in the 1980s and early 1990s.

But, as we know, things all went pear shaped in 1995. At conventions the shock announcement was made - the 'generation' was reformulated so that it could stretch into the foreseeable future. Try as they might to dress it up well in talks and the publications, ordinary Witnesses knew in their gut that the society were saying they simply did not know how long the old system might last. For practically the first time in their 120 year history Witnesses had no date to work work towards, no reasonable time frame in which to place their expectations. No wonder this has a dramatic effect on the Witnesses' ability to convert and retain members - in the western world they have still to recover from the 1995 announcement. And they will not recover until they make a new prediction...

That is all history you know already, so sorry for going over it again.

This is the history of the future:

1. Witness leaders nowadays do not have the luxury of an 'open the window' period of reform, although there have been some small moves in that dirrection.

2. The governing body (especially the young ones and future appointees) will panic when they realise that tinkering (15 mins for old publishers and pioneer requirement shifts) has not done the trick.

3. They will make more and more grave statements about the end being near, but these won't do the trick either because they will contain nothing specific.

4. Eventually the governing body will stomach the idea of promoting 2034 as the possible date for the end (120 years from 1914 - 'just as the days of Noah will the days of the son of man be...'). There may be some infighting about this as there was in Franz' day, but some new 'prophet' will need to come forward from among them! A replacement for Freddy is still awaited.

But what will happen then? That is the interesting part. Will the Witnesses have a turn-around just as they did in the early 1970s? Or will ordinary Witnesses see through the date setting because of the flood of information on the Internet? Or will the Witnesses break up into various factions and branches before it even reaches that stage? (see earlier thread) That is not so easy to call. I am just setting out one of the possibilities.

One of the biggest problems for the governing body is that 2034 is an awful long time away. Only when new appointments are made to the governing body of people who have a reasonable chance of making it to 2034 will this idea get off the ground. Even then, the governing body will have a challenge in convincing ordinary Witnesses to hang around until then. They can either come out with the date soon in the hope of short-term gains - or they can keep it under their hat until the mid-2020s. If the latter - then they are going to have some problems in giving incentives for making people stay until the new prediction is made. The general warnings about the nearness of the end, no matter how strongly they are worded, will simply not have the same impact as a definite prediction.

Background to 2034 prediction:

Back in 1998, before I read anything apostate, I was having a conversation with an elderly sister about when the end might come. She suggested it would come in 1999. "Why 1999?", I asked. Because that will be 120 years from when the Watchtower was first published. God gave the people in Noah's day 120 years, and perhaps he was giving us 120 years also. I was quite taken with this theory at the time, but of course 1999 came and went.

Then there was that Watchtower a while back that many apostates interpreted as pointing to 2034 implicitly. I do not agree with those who overinterpreted that Watchtower as meaning a bit more than perhaps it did. But I did agree with those who suggested that it may be an indication of things to come. It suggests that someone in the writing department (perhaps a younger Nethinim hopeful, waiting for the governing body to be opened to the great crowd) has perhaps given passing thought to the possibility of a 120 tie in with 1914 to 2034.

Then I read an interesting thing about the Adventists. You know how they expected the end of the world in 1843/4? Well it turns out that many Adventists also thought of a 120 year tie in with that date and came to the conclusion that the end would come in 1964. Where the Adventists have been, the Witnesses will follow. Nothing much has changed since the days of Russell...

18

Are JW's becoming more mainstream or more reclusive?

by Pwned in

i really dont know but i have read both opinions on this forum.

many in my fam are in but we never talk about their religion, except when they invite me to some meeting, or the memorial, assembly etc.

slimboyfat

More mainstream on the outside and more reclusive in the inside

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

Yes, well I just wonder what Naeblis would have to say about all this...

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

The UN is the eighth world power.

But Britain and America are the seventh beast. If covorting with the UN is so bad - then what about the Witnesses being registered as a charity in Britain? Would that not be the same thing?

Could someone explain the difference?

This whole UN "scandal" has never made any sense to me. It is not the big deal apostates make out. Sometimes I think apostates pretend certain things are a big deal among themselves so they can confirm to themsleves that they are right and Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

You're not a troll. Trolls know exactly what to think and why they post here.

Thank you - that is the first helpful thing you have said. I have no agenda. I have no stong opinions. I *think* Jehovah's Witnesses might still have the truth, but I am not sure.

Maybe the problem is that I am being *too* truthful. I would love to pretend I know all the answers the way Jehovah's Witnesses do and apostates do in their own quaint ways.

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

Ray Franz seems like a very nice man, and I don't want to bash him in any way. His book is also very very honest.

So honest in fact that he documents his protracted attempt to remain on the governing body and his attempt to avoid being disfellowshipped.

What would have happened if Ray Franz was never disfellowshipped for talking to an apostate in a cafe? He would have remianed a loyal inconspicuous JW for the rest of his days. He would have been just another unkown Chitty.

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

Then why'd they disassociate when they were found out?

I don't know - but that doesn't mean it was a conspiracy. There is no proof.

I have been reading apostate stuff for years. But I am not convinced. I just wanted to see if anyone knows why.

I am not convinced that only someone with an emotional problem would reject apostate claims. That seems a wholely arrogant suggestion. Maybe it simply means that the apostate way is not the only way.

It seems that the apostate ideology is every bit as exclusive as that of the spirit directed organisation. Everyone who does not buy into the discourse is a "troll".

126

I still think it might be the truth - what is wrong with me?

by slimboyfat in

apostate literature - i have read the lot.

you name it - c of c, gentile times reconsidered, thirty tears a watchtower slave, the orwellian world of jehovah's witness, apocalypse delayed, and the freeminds and watchtower observer sites, so on and so on.

and i have been reading the posts on this site regularly pretty much since it started, and hourglass before it.

slimboyfat

Ray Franz did not leave because of his conscience - he was pushed out.

C of C shows clearly that he tried his hardest to stay in the governing body but was forced out!

There was a thread a while ago that asked something like "are you glad about all the things you can do now you are not a Witness" and everyone said all the naughty things they could do now and how great it was. I am not making this up - you guys said it yourself. There were very few who said that did not mind living up to Bible standards anyway.