Yes that’s right. For people who see no reason to believe in God in the first place then there is no reason to excuse the contradiction between God and suffering. And for those who do think there are reasons to believe in God it is reasonable for them to think there may be a reason for suffering that God knows but we do not know. Some reasons people have for believing in God in the first place include: 1) the fact that anything exists at all rather than nothing 2) personal experiences or encounters with the divine 3) indications of God acting in and through human history.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
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slimboyfat
Well of course. The point is that what may appear to be a contradiction to one person, may not appear to be a contradiction to another person, if that other person has greater knowledge or insight. It is rational to at least leave open the possibility that God has a better grasp on the nature of reality, goodness and justice than we do.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
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slimboyfat
The New Testament says that God is good and cares about his creatures. It also says that we cannot understand the mind of God, and that when his actions seem unjust we have no right to challenge him. It does not say anywhere, as far as I am aware, that God’s goodness is dependent on whether we understand or can justify how God acts. In fact it explicitly says the opposite (particularly in Romans 9) that God is just even if we are unable to see how that can be the case.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
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slimboyfat
I agree that we think we understand evil and suffering and that this logically excludes an all powerful and loving God. What I am saying is that our understanding cannot always be relied upon. And that there is at least the possibility that the creator of the universe knows better than we do.
Just because we think we understand something doesn’t mean we really understand it. Take the example time. We think we know that time progresses like an endless flow, that what’s been has been and what will be is not yet. And yet scientists have argued that our common understanding of time is a kind of illusion and the reality is quite different.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-04558-7
If we can be mistaken in our perception and understanding of something as close to us as our experience of time, then what else do we perceive differently? The Bible says we cannot always understand why God acts as he does, and we have no right to question his justice.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
Believers who accept that the problem of evil or suffering is a real problem, and that they don’t know the answer to it, are making a rational judgment that God will understand the reality of the situation and our predicament better than we understand it. The reason for thinking this may be the case is that God must have infinite more insight than we do and there is other evidence for Gos’s love such as his creation, Jesus and his revelation. This is not dismissing suffering as a mystery. It is saying that there does appear to be a real contraction between God’s love and his power to act to stop suffering. But that there are limits to human understanding and that God has infinite wisdom and insight that we cannot ourselves grasp.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
The problem is that the Bible writers had the same access to suffering that you do. They were not ignorant of the fact that we live in a world of suffering. And yet they described God as a God of love anyway. They believed that we cannot know God’s mind but we can know the mind of Jesus. They believed that God is good, even if we don’t always understand why he acts as he does.
1 Cor 2:16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
1 John 5:20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are! For “who has come to know Jehovah’s mind, or who has become his adviser?” Or, “who has first given to him, so that it must be repaid to him?” Because from him and by him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
I agree we are rational beings to an extent. We seem to possess abilities that exceed other animals as far as we know. And we can understand and predict the natural world to a significant degree. But the fact that we are able to do this doesn’t necessarily (or rationally!) mean that we have unlimited powers to understand the world around us or the nature of existence. There may very well be limits to what we can understand. In fact I would put it stronger than that, there are almost certainly limits on the extent we can accurately understand the world and its nature.
As humans we misunderstand and draw false inferences about the world all the time. Some people think they can sing when they can’t, or think they understand why someone did something when they don’t, or perceive a shape to be a shape it isn’t, or are convinced a short line is a long line because of the influence of others, and so on. The scope for misunderstanding and delusion in every day life is enormous. And if we can be mistaken about such mundane things, is it not reasonable to suppose there are things God can understand that we can’t understand? Like the nature of evil and the purpose of existence? It seems like a perfectly reasonable suggestion to me that God will know things that we cannot understand.
The Bible teaches that God is good but it also teaches that we cannot understand his nature and that we have no right to challenge his justice or goodness.
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
Paul also taught that we are not in a position to judge God’s actions that appear unjust in Romans 9.
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
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169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
Cofty I know you have attempted to take standards from the Bible and apply them to God. That’s not the question. The question is why you think you are able to do so.
The Bible indicates we are not in a position to judge God:
40 The Lord said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you. -
169
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness ini just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.
they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.
god failed to prove his right to rule.
-
-
slimboyfat
If God defines what is good, then on what grounds can we judge him? If for example he says obedience or worship are the ultimate good.