Posts by Etude

"I call myself an atheist because I am unconvinced by the evidence presented that a God exists. I make no claim, however, that a God cannot exist." From your post #2 on this thread.

I understand your position. I'm probably somewhere close to that. However, there is some less clarity in my mind about what an "atheist" means when we look at some of the definitions and compare them to agnosticism. For example, I found that agnosticism may describe you more than atheism:

"In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. [2] In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

The latter description reminds me more of your own description. So, could you be an agnostic rather than an atheists? Possibly, by some definitions. The reason I looked up that definition is because I was reading a book recently (perhaps it was something I read on-line) and the "harder" definition of an agnostic came up. It intimated that the fundamental difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that the former is convinced that God (or anything mystical) does not exist (by what evidence, I'm not sure) but that the agnostic does not recognize any convincing evidence to completely rule out God.

I also recently blogged about a contrast between Richard Dawkins (a fierce atheists endearingly called "Darwin's Rottweiler") and Paul Davies (a well known physicist and an expert on the Anthropic Principle). In his book "The God Delusion", Dawkins criticizes agnostics possibly even more severely than he takes theists to task. He basically believes that agnosticism is intellectually dishonest. However, he does not directly refute Davies' views. Davies on the other hand, has made the statement that in Science, there are times when we need to accept things by faith. The implication is that this "faith" is as valid as the faith of theists who accept God by faith.

Davies deduction is that since the laws of nature we use to explain matter and the world (namely those of Quantum Physics) break down and are useless when explaining the sub-atomic realm, we must accept by faith and not by proof (experimentation) that the world is as we explain it. Furthermore, even if the laws are correct, what explains the laws? That is what introduces us to the Multiverse (the Antrhopic Princple), which basically states (in the Strong Anthropic Principle only) that there must be an infinite amount of universes where every possible combination of the quantum constants (the ones we know) exists in other ratios. That would give rise to the combination of constants we happen to find in our own universe. The problem (which is Davis stronghold) is that we cannot verify that and therefore must accept it with a certain degree of faith. Davis has therefore proposed the following possibilities for our existence:

1. The absurd universe - It just happens to be that way.

2. The unique universe - There is a deep underlying unity in physics, which necessitates the universe being this way. Some 'Theory of Everything' will explain why the various features of the Universe must have exactly the values that we see.

3. The multiverse - Multiple Universes exist which have all possible combinations of characteristics, and we naturally find ourselves within the one that supports our existence.

4. Intelligent Design - An intelligent Creator designed the Universe specifically to support complexity and the emergence of Intelligence.

5. The Life Principle - There is an underlying principle that constrains the universe to evolve towards life and mind.

6. The self-explaining universe - A closed explanatory or causal loop: 'perhaps only universes with a capacity for consciousness can exist'.

7. The fake universe - We are living in a virtual reality simulation.

Yes, it's kinda tongue-in-cheek. However, it leaves us pretty much guessing and not having any guarantees of anything either from theologians or scientists, which is Davies' point. So, I feel comfortable choosing option no. 7 in Davies' list, which makes the "atheist" and "agnostic" rather transitory.

46

Can you think of anything that is postive about being A JW?

by jam in

they make good neighbors, why because they.

stay to themselves..

Etude

I felt they promoted honesty, you know, about paying taxes and obeying the laws, etc. At least, I always kept that in mind when I dealt with government. Lately, especially in bad economic times, I find people will do whatever they need to do to make it. While only one or two people (Witness sisters) would visit my mom after she became ill, one of them basically let it slip that she was working "under the table" for wages and that her sister from Honduras (a Witness) also worked "under the table" because she only had a visitor's visa to the U.S. I think those two are probably very nice people even thought they fail to recognize the ethical dichotomy. So much for honesty.

139

Witness Speak: the worst of collection

by grumblecakes in

jw
friends

so we all know the jw vocabulary is a weird one.

what words or phrases bugged you the most?.

a few of mine:.

Etude

I think that the single most influential person (at least initially) for the origin of these unique terms and phrases was (drum roll please) Fred Franz. Not only are many of the terms right out of his era, but they convey the sort of erudite vacuum he lived in. He would say things like "It would well behoove us..." or "it would not be out of place to..." or "we could well conclude then..." in order for us to be persuaded to agree. After a while, his style just became rampant in the literature.

139

Witness Speak: the worst of collection

by grumblecakes in

jw
friends

so we all know the jw vocabulary is a weird one.

what words or phrases bugged you the most?.

a few of mine:.

Etude

Perhaps this will only resonate with ex-Bethelites:

New boy (new Bethel entrant)

The hub of Jehovah's organization (Bethel)

New boy talk (what you used to get as a group after arriving at bethel telling you what you could or could not do at Bethel)

Orientation (your tour around Bethel)

Table head (the elder that sat at the end of the dining room table and got to pass around all the food. In one direction one day and in the other direction the next day)

Bethel elder (someone who held some sort of responsible position at Bethel)

Potlicker! (I don't know exactly what it meant, but it sure was popular when I was there)

Bad attitude or a "B.A." (someone who had issues with the Bethel rules.

Home overseer (the elder in charge of running a particular Bethel residence)

Factory overseer (the guy who ran the entire printing facilities)

Service desk (the office complex that would deal with the congreations and policies)

Farm overseer (at Wallkill at one time, it meant the guy who ran everything, but he had sub overseers to run the magazine presses know as the "Factory", the farm facilities and what-have-you.)

16

Newb

by Vindico in

jw
friends

whad up, been lurking for a while.

i live in new mexico, ive been dfd for about 20 years.

im married 13 years have 3 kids and couldnt be happier.

Etude

Welcome, you heathen apostate, you religious sinner, you. I commiserate in your happiness away from the Borg!

697

Why aren't you an Atheist?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

jw
friends

long time lurker, first time poster.. .

i'm an ms (accounts servant) in a large congregation in canada.

over the last several years i've faught a hard-won battle to rid my mind of all religous and supernatural beleifs.

Etude

Bloody Hotdogs! My answer to your question is: Because there's an undeniable tendency in humans which is stronger in some more than others for what some people term "religiosity". Other's call it "spirituality", which encompases the feeling that there's more to the universe, including a meaningful and ultimate purpose and a higher intelligence. That is the force that has caused every culture since the dawn of time to have a concept of "god", something that is very difficult to explain in Evolutionary terms. I came late to this discussion, so forgive me is someone has already addressed this topic with my same comments.

Perhaps it's the misguided need that spirituality can create that makes people congregate into religious groups. After believing for decades and then losing all my preconceived notions about God, I have come to respect and appreciate the need some individuals have to be spiritual. I recognize it in myself, although I have reasoned that I don't need the trappings of rite and fanciful imigery to accomplish the same thing.

At the same time, while believing in the material world above all, I realize that Atheism cannot answer all the questions about what is or isn't. That does not force me to make an alternate conclusion. That leaves me in a difficult place, but one I've learned to be comfortable with, a place from where I can sincerely say: "I don't know". The great thing about my "not knowing" is that it continues to push me to ask more and more profound questions rather than sit complacently on the sidelines. I walk a tight rope every day.

28

Eric Reeder's Memorial?

by NeverKnew in

jw
friends

i've seen the insulting obituary and like all of you, i'm blown away.. i've also seen several threads of individuals crying out for an opportunity to meet with others on this board.

maybe it's time to recognize the need for an assembly (if you will) to foster a familial relationship for those on this board!.

what if a memorial were planned, in eric's honor of course, for a weekend next september in north carolina?

Etude

I don't know what a year from now may bring me. However, I committ myself to attend for the reason that, besides honoring Eric, it would be a powerfully way to show we care more than they do and because we can bring awareness about the situation that prompted them gathering.

630

SAD news about OOMPA......

by redredrose in

jw
friends

our friend, oompa, has passed away.

just recieved the news a couple of hours ago, and have almost no details.

it happened today or yesterday, he took his own life.

Etude

never a jw , I reserved my comments for a later time after I read your entry (post #37) because I had to first figure out where you were coming from. I didn't want to lash out at you out of my personal pain and regret. I think your question is genuine, given your lack of understanding about how the WTBTS operates. In some ways, your question is painful to many of us that know firsthand how the organization works and manages to alienate people and devastate lives. I'm guessing you've glossed over some of the comments (I'm thinking of mine) regarding their sanctimonious attitudes. We've lived that, many of us who have had family members shun us and who have had every friend in the world (up to then) turn against us and abandon us. You can't seriously think that to be left out in an emotional desert would not affect people, even the strongest of us.

For Eric, it was more than he could handle. Some people are fragile that way. That doesn't take away from the blame the WTBTS has, and yes, every individual within their ranks involved, for taking part in the demise of a person by denying him or her of the human bond that we so desperately need. If you, as I understand it, have children that are JWs and are not in touch with you, imagine your whole world being alienated from you. It's not easy for some to rebuild a new world of friends and loved ones.

To answer your question directly, the WTBTS is responsible because they have instituted a policy that promotes pain and misery, that encourages family members and friends to abandon one another, that goes against Christ's principles to love even the worst amongst us, that uses cruel procedures to decapitate a body of relationships from its constituents; and they do it in order to punish, because that's how they've chosen to interpret the scriptures. It's just not right in so many ways.

What Eric did he did out of desperation. It's not the first time this has happened. The point is that many people don't have the fortitude that you may have. We should protect those that are the weakest amongst us. That's what Jesus would have done. But the WTBTS doesn't see it that way. Doesn't that make them responsible? If his wife left him it wasn't just because she was tired of him. Think about the counsel she received and the advice they gave her. If you have no clue about that, search this web site or just ask someone here for examples on how they operate.

Do I have to go on with every possibility of what Eric faced? Read his posts and maybe you'll learn something. There's no doubt in my mind that the policies of the WTBTS have caused untold pain and suffering, especially in this particular case. I could be more generic and mention the case about Malawi and Mexico, how some people were exposed to rape and death for not accepting a political membership card (Malawi) and others are allowed to bribe officials to get a military service card (Mexico) in order to continue as Witnesses. Yes, the blood on the WTBTS's hands will never coagulate.

630

SAD news about OOMPA......

by redredrose in

jw
friends

our friend, oompa, has passed away.

just recieved the news a couple of hours ago, and have almost no details.

it happened today or yesterday, he took his own life.

Etude

Like I said before, I didn't really know Oompa personally and I can't even remember if I commented on his posts. Since yesterday when I felt so hurt at the news, I woke up on a sunny and relatively warm day feeling so bummed out.

I thought about Eric's death and started to get angry while thinking about what the trolls here and the witlesses who knew Eric are thinking. Instead of reflecting on the tragic loss of a life, those sanctimonious bastards are probably saying to themselves how he probably committed suicide because he was lost and removed from Jehovah and they're probably contemplating how he won't have a chance to come back to their stupid new order.

I know that at least some of them will think this way because I've been a witness to that. The last expression of the sort I heard about came from my brother-in-law's mouth. In spite of being a witless in good standing, the guy is a zero on the left, willing to let his family go homeless. His insensitivity knows no bounds. That's the sort of thing that cult encourages.

Right now, I try to picture Eric's life with the words in this song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywx6CIw3RIA