Posts by Raphael

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

LittleToe...

Hope you're good fella ;-)

I think my experiences with the WTS have taught me not to be dogmatic about anything....I'm open to the Sprits leading on issues and others may well have more insight than I on a particular topic, in which case I conceed, that the Spirit may use them to teach also.

You're right God needs noone to defend him and that is not my intention and I hope thatis not the impression I have created. I'm sure God - having a great sense of humour ,sometimes looks at these posts and perhaps has a laugh and shakes his head at some of the things we come up with - at least I hope he does.

23

Circumcision....How is it justified?

by gringojj in

i am unclear on this.

it seems for most religions leave this question up to the parents.

but how do people justify it?

Raphael

Last Updated: Tuesday, 26 July, 2005, 18:59 GMT 19:59 UK alt

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Printable version

Circumcision 'helps to halt HIV'

Foreskin cells are thought to be more susceptible to HIV

New research suggests circumcision could be effective in preventing the spread of HIV among men.

The study of more than 3,000 men in South Africa was done by the French agency for Aids and Viral Hepatitis.

The data, outlined at a conference in Brazil, shows male circumcision prevented about seven of 10 infections.

UN health agencies have cautioned that more trials are necessary before they will recommend this as a method to protect against Aids.

Previous studies have suggested that men who are circumcised have a lower rate of HIV infection.

It is thought that the cells of the foreskin are much more susceptible to HIV than cells on other parts of the penis, so by removing the foreskin, the likelihood of infection drops.

Further trials are being carried out in Uganda and Kenya to measure the effect of circumcision on other populations.

If similar results are found, then circumcision could be used alongside condoms to prevent the spread of HIV, the BBC's Ania Lichtarowicz reports from the conference in Rio de Janeiro.

But implementing this measure on a large scale will be

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

You say that "God is hoping David would take responsibility for his sin - David doesn't - he fails to show hearfelt repentence - all he would need to do in order for God to turn from bringing judgement upon himself and the nation."

In fact David did exactly that; v10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly."

Nicolaou...

It is true David does feel guilty and admit his sin , asks for forgiveness ...However is it true heartfelt repentance . I would suggest that David does not realize the full impact of his actions -

I think it is also important to note that the census took place over a period of almost 9 months , before God chose to act - giving David sufficient time in which to change course.

In verses 12-13 God gives David 3 choices to test his heart...

Two of the choices involve situations that would effect the nation as a whole :

Famine would not neccessarily effect David and his family .As the Royal family we could argue that their needs would be met, famine would largely effect the most vulnerable in the nation.

The option of disease would also expose the most vulnerable and afflict the entire nation - David and his household it could be argued would have the resources to temporarily flee and so escape the situation.

My guess is that if David had chosen the option to be pursued by his enemies - this choice would perhaps indicate that he was taking full responsibilty for his sin..

Notice how God words this choice "...or will YOUR enemies chase YOU and make YOU run from tehm for 3 MONTHS...

Verse 14 tells us David was really frightened, and leaves his and the nations fate in God hands.

As I mentioned previously David seemingly fails to take full responsibilty - possibly an indication of a lack of heartfelt repentance.

God chooses and the entire nation suffer as a result ...

Verse 17 David finally realises the full impact of his sin he now takes responsibility and says in effect the nation have not sinned ..it is me who has lead them astray as leader punish ME and MY family...

God halts the slaying ...and the plague ends...

Interesting to note that in the verses that follow , David also produces works that befit repentance , by offfering sacrifices in accordance with Mosaic Law - thus making atonement for the sin .

God is vindicated as a righteous judge.

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

Shootist --that's an infantile remark - how old are you ?

I suggest topic closed .....

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

Why are we fighting each other? - I gave may reasoning on the subject - I was respectful of all the other opinions and continue to be.

I am incensed when some resort to personal attacks in order to defend their position on a topic - just what I assume gives JW's fuel to stoke their opinions about "apostates"...

Little Toe - I have read a number of your posts - I actually like and respect you - despite the fact I do not share all your views.

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.

Thomas J. Watson

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

You've evidently thought some about it, but haven't really veered far from the JW partline, huh

My insight is from the the Holy Spirit - who guides all true believers who seek truth - and not from the WTBS source of *light" or "insight" ...

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Galileo Galilei

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

I trust you know the answers to your questions.

A quote comes to mind

"None so blind as those who will not see or rather choose not too ;-)"

53

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou in

god tells david, "don't count my people".

david counts the people.. god tells david, "'cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence?

choose davey boy!".

Raphael

In understanding difficult issues in Scripture , it helps to try too see things in both their historical and cultural contexts and to interpret them within the framework of Gods perfect justice /love /wisdom and power....

David was in a very privileged position - he was King ...God had place all authority and power in his hands.

Davids' sin was not just a simple error in judgement - he acted with a certain deliberateness when taking the census - he acted with a spirit of arrogance and pride - two of the sins God hates most - David knew that the consequences would be disasterous - he was not acting in ignorance.

To illustrate , I'll use a simple analogy: my young niece - 5 years old and her brother , my nephew 2 where taking a bath recently - they love bath time - because they get to splash about and make a mess as young kids generally do - their grandmother , my mum needless to say asked them not to splash water on the floor - my niece, I'm told then deliberately took a jug filled it with water and emptied it out onto the floor deliberately ;-) - why? we may ask - it seems senseless - I maintain she was trying to see how much she would get away with - before making her grandmother angry .

David did much the same ...

God in his justice - could not let this treacherous act go unpunished - even though in his heart he wanted nothing more than to forgive and wipe the slate clean - My God's heart was broken at Davids actions and heart attitude at the time , in the same way my mum may have felt at my young nieces deliberate act of naughtiness - should she walk away and forget about it - or was action required - I'll let you answer that for yourselves.

God in his infinite mercy condescends and gives David a choice - what he wants from David is simply heartfelt repentence - acknowlegment that he has sinned against God and Israel - whome might I suggest were not merely innocent bystanders - they knew Gods warning about taking a census - they too had a choice - and could easily have disobeyed David - and given God obedience instead.

God is hoping David would take responsibility for his sin - David doesn't - he fails to show hearfelt repentence - all he would need to do in order for God to turn from bringing judgement upon himself and the nation .

Instead he ums and ahs about it - and then throws it back at God as if to say well what are you going to do about it then?

God chooses - and 70000 people die - I suggest David is responsible for their deaths - he selfishly refused to take responsibilty - his actions effected an entire nation - he was their King and he acted presumptiously , with no regard for the nation God had entrusted to him - a lesson we sometimes fail to learn - our actions dont just affect us - they often have a ripple effect and especially when we are entrusted as stewards over the things that belong to God - Israel was not just any nation they were a holy nation entrusted with ultimately bringing salvation to the entire human race - "God is not one to be mocked"

Yet in his infinite love and mercy - he cuts short the plague when David finally realises the full impact of his actions and does show heartfelt repentance and humbles himself under Gods mighty hand - all God wanted in the first place!

Thats my 5 cents worth ....

Excuse the spelling errors ;-)

I'd be happy for others to add their 2 cents