TheListener

Joined

• started 210 topics
• posted 3,839 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by TheListener

• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Juni, that's not fair. You know if she brings up the UN it's an automatic red flag for the elder body. Steer clear Darcy, steer clear.
• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  I don't mean to be rude but can Satanus and Myelaine create a new topic thread for your "discussion."

  very humbly asked.
• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  
  Darcy, You said

  Second thought. You mentioned he, God, doesn't seem to want to do much with the individual. And that makes sense, because he has nearly always worked through an organization. The priests with the Israelites, the kings, the judges, all that hierarchy. Early Christians and their congregations and brothers and "traveling brothers" like Paul. And then the dispute for today, which organization is God using today? Also, there are all the scriptures that talk about worshipping with others. From Jesus (I think) who said where two or three are gathered there are enough to Paul in Heb. 10:24, 25 and David in Psalms 22.22 "I shall declare your name to my brothers, in the middle of the congregation i shall praise you." So organization is important to our Almighty. But again, much dispute over which one he is using.

  I didn’t say that (I don’t think) so I’m not sure if that is a response to someone else’s post. But, I will say that I used to believe God worked through an organization but since digging into the Bible I have come to realize that he mostly works through individuals. I’m not going to detail it out here but I think if you really check it out you’ll be surprised. Don’t go with the standard response that he used the Israelites as a nation and then the first century Christians. I did that for decades and I never really put serious thought into it until the past couple of years.

  I would add that Psalms 22:22 is less about meeting together in specific groups or settings than about proclaiming Jesus’ shed blood on our behalf. Since Psalm 22 is considered by most Christians to be prophetically discussing Jesus humiliation and exaltation. Also, Hebrews 10:24, I agree it is enjoyable to discuss biblical topics with others and share faith. I find it encouraging to do so. To take that scripture and institutionalize it is quite another matter.

  I say that Christ didn’t point to any organization as selected or chosen over another. To presume that Jehovah needs a man-managed organization to fulfill his promises presumes too much. All men have been released from the bondage of sin and death. Jehovah can use and make righteous whomever he chooses – regardless of organizational affiliation.

  Is building our faith in Jesus sacrifice and what it means to us important? You bet. Is associating with those of likemindedness helpful in this regard? You bet. Must we be a part of a specific organization to do so? No. The only organization we must belong to is the body of Christ and that knows no bounds.

  Also, you said

  Hmm... I can't read your post while I write this so I can't remember the other things. Oh oh, the faith and works... I wanted to add that works must be important because James says without them, faith is dead. Myself, I'd compare it to having an animal. You can say you love that animal as much as your want, but if you don't feed, care, and pet the creature adequately, then your words are empty. And you can see the application that would have to faith and works.

  I put my thoughts down in my previous post and don’t have much to add. I will add this thought though. Make sure that any works that you do are motivated by the faith you have. Not faith that the witnesses are the one true religion, but faith that Jesus died for your sins and is the mediator for you to have a relationship with Jehovah. That’s the key. Don’t auxiliary pioneer, conduct studies, comment, give talks, etc etc in hopes of pleasing God. Those things please the congregation but it’s your faith that pleases God. The works James mentions in chapter 2 aren’t the works of teaching others in the door to door ministry but of caring for others physical needs (Jas. 2:15). Our sacred service to Jehovah must be focused on showing others the good affects our faith brings us and helping others in a physical way (See WT10/1/76 - Sacred Service Rendered Day and Night - yes it might be rather old but it's a beautifully written and encouraging article).
• 
  10

  Another great point from M. James Penton...

  by Confession in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a week or so ago, i quoted from m. james penton's "apocalypse delayed: the story of jehovah's witnesses.

  " a number of you commented on it, so i thought i'd do it again.

  here he comments on the worst features of the new world translation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Oh, and the word mighty doesn't have to be evil. It could be translated valiant, heroic or something else good.

  From Strong's:

  01368 gibbowr {ghib-bore'} or (shortened) gibbor {ghib-bore'}
  intensive from 01396; TWOT - 310b
  AV - mighty 63, mighty man 68, strong 4, valiant 3, .... ones 4,
  mighties 2, man 2, valiant men 2, strong man 1, upright man 1,
  champion 1, chief 1, excel 1, giant 1, men's 1, mightiest 1,
  strongest 1; 158
  adj
  1) strong, mighty
  n m
  2) strong man, brave man, mighty man
• 
  10

  Another great point from M. James Penton...

  by Confession in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a week or so ago, i quoted from m. james penton's "apocalypse delayed: the story of jehovah's witnesses.

  " a number of you commented on it, so i thought i'd do it again.

  here he comments on the worst features of the new world translation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Hi Confession. The WTS view on Nimrod isn't much different than mainstream christianity, as far as I can tell. But, adding "in opposition to" for a word that means literally (from Strong's):

  06440 paniym {paw-neem'} pl. (but always as sing.) of an unused
  noun [paneh{paw-neh'}
  from 06437; TWOT - 1782a; n m
  AV - before 1137, face 390, presence 76, because 67, sight 40,
  countenance 30, from 27, person 21, upon 20, of 20, ...me 18,
  against 17, ...him 16, open 13, for 13, toward 9, misc 195; 2109
  1) face
  1a) face, faces
  1b) presence, person
  1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)
  1d) face (of animals)
  1e) face, surface (of ground)
  1f) as adv of loc/temp
  1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly,
  from beforetime, before
  1g) with prep
  1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of,
  in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of,
  from before, from before the face of

  You'll notice that the word paniym is translated 17 times as "against". Check out those 17 scriptures and you'll see what I mean. Those are the verses the society uses to justify adding "in opposition to" this text. Yes, when going to battle with someone you may say 'I'm going against him' or you may say 'I'm going to face him.' Either way the word paniym indicates the location not the attitude. "in opposition to" takes location and makes it an attitude. I have a thread somewhere on here that discusses Nimrod, and Narkissos made a post regarding the translation of the word paniym as well.
• 
  10

  Another great point from M. James Penton...

  by Confession in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a week or so ago, i quoted from m. james penton's "apocalypse delayed: the story of jehovah's witnesses.

  " a number of you commented on it, so i thought i'd do it again.

  here he comments on the worst features of the new world translation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Also how they add render genesis 10:9 as "He displayed himself a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah. That is why there is a saying: “Just like Nim´rod a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah.”

  The Hebrew word rendered "in opposition to" is paniym (#6440). It means before or in front of someone. It's in the bible over 2,100 times and it doesn't give emotion, it gives location. By inserting "in opposition to" instead of something like "in front of" or "before" they changed the overall meaning to fit their own theology.
• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Darcy, I thank you for your response. My internet time is limited and sometimes it takes me some time to respond to a thread.

  I liked your answer. You did what I was hoping you’d do. Answered from your own thoughts and not just parrot a WT article. It sounds easy to do but it isn’t.

  In response I’m not critiquing or debating your post but putting my thoughts on paper. I’ve not put these particular thoughts down before and may not be able to defend each thought as well as I should. I quoted some scriptures and cited others, but I hope this doesn’t sound preachy because it really is just my current viewpoint. I’m constantly learning and refining my viewpoint. (ask AuldSoul, he schools me every chance he gets ).

  One of the things I’ve been looking at is: what is God’s will? I don’t have a definitive answer but I agree that we clearly must follow it. My first thought was God’s will is to make the earth a paradise and for us to live on it forever. I felt afterall that that was his original plan. But, after reviewing various scriptures and letting the Bible itself plainly tell me God’s will I changed my opinion. In John 6:35-40 Jesus tells us what God’s will is (I’ll quote 6:40) : “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Also, Paul tells us at 1 Thess. 4:3 that it’s God’s will that we don’t fornicate. I find 1 Thess. 4:3 interesting in light of 1 Cor. 6:18 where Paul tells us that fornication is a sin against our own body. Tied in with the verses that tell us that our body belongs to Christ it seems to make sense. Now when I read the Lord’s prayer about God’s will being done on earth as it is in heaven I focus on the death of Jesus and its meaning for mankind and how God wants all to live. Whether that be by means of a paradise earth or a heavenly existence is a discussion for another day.

  As far as opposing God’s will I would say that the Bible is pretty clear that lack of belief in Jesus Christ ransom sacrifice is a key to that (1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7).

  One of the most difficult things, at least for me, is maintaining the fine balance between faith and works.

  The scriptures clearly state that faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice are all that is necessary to gain everlasting life (I won’t quote them but when you have time check them out – John 3:36; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:22; Eph. 2:8,9; there are others but I think these make the point).

  Is work necessary? According to Paul it appears not. But according to James works appear crucial (James 2: 14-20). Read Romans the 2nd chapter and James the 2nd chapter and you’ll see the striking difference in their viewpoint immediately.

  Is there a conflict? I personally don’t think so. Paul and James, while not best of friends, agree that faith is the precursor to works. Paul agrees with James that faith will produce works (Eph. 2:10) and James agrees that works are a product of faith. So which comes first? Faith. True faith causes us to what? Produce works. Are the works necessary for salvation? No. But, we can’t get around that if we have faith (which is necessary for salvation) works will follow. If we don’t see any works in our life; well, perhaps our faith isn’t what we thought.

  I also have had difficulty in reconciling the do’s and don’ts of the Bible. First I’m told that faith in Jesus is all I need and that everything except blasphemy will be forgiven then I’m told ‘oh yeah but you can’t do this, that or the other thing.’ Which is it; faith or following the rules? Paul is pretty clear in Galatians 5 that those who practice (or perform repeatedly) works of the flesh will not inherit God’s kingdom.

  Again, after careful review I didn’t see conflict. In Galatians 5 where Paul discusses the works of the flesh he isn’t talking about someone who makes mistakes, even serious ones. He’s talking about someone who performs these things repeatedly. Someone who is habitual with the works of the flesh won’t inherit God’s kingdom. OK, so with all the do’s and don’ts the main thing I try to remember is my faith in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is my basis for salvation. That faith motivates me to do things I may not do otherwise. Like what? I like discussing Bible topics with others, I feel good when I can help someone in need, whether financially, physically or spiritually, I am a happy person with a strong hope for the future which makes me smile and laugh and just basically be very friendly. If I commit a work of the flesh or some other serious sin I know I can be forgiven and beg God to do so.

  In a nutshell then I believe that our salvation depends upon faith in Jesus Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The works that flow from that faith are key to helping others, both believers and non-believers, and that following God’s will means believing in Jesus and allowing God’s spirit to be active in my life – which again motivate my thoughts and actions.
• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Maybe Wanderlustguy, maybe.
• 
  45

  Nimrod; Tower of Babel

  by TheListener in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  did nimrod build the

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Thanks Darcy, I appreciate your comment.
• 
  77

  For Darcy, what do you think is necessary for salvation?

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know it was a rather long and drawn out title but i couldnt' think of another way to word it.

  this is especially for the new poster darcy.

  i was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheListener

  Perhaps MidwichCuckoo (that's hard to type by the way) but as long as Darcy is responsive and polite I am enjoying the interchange. I found her response to sound genuine to me.

  Darcy,

  I hear what you're saying and totally agree. It's not for us to judge others, and for what it's worth we're not too good at judging ourselves either. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who's still a MS in the congregation and we were talking about what was necessary for salvation. He was of the opinion that you needed to follow the rules and regulations set by God in the Bible and be a part of the one true religion. He is very sincere and respectful of my new found explorations into my beliefs.

  The question in my first post sounded better in my head than it did once I typed it. What I meant was (I'll try again), Based on scriptural backup what do you feel is necessary to please Jehovah and thus gain everlasting life. Not necessarily for others but for yourself. Is faith in Jesus sacrifice enough in itself or do we have to show our faith and do we have to belong to a specific religion - long but there it is.

  I'm not looking for you to defend the Witness doctrine, I know that all too well. I'm really just looking to see what your personal viewpoint is on the matter.